"Classic Valve and ULT trigger don't mix"... my a**(video)

[electriceel125]

What did you use to make the stop? How did you make it? Thankz

[Glock17]

What are shims? Oh and is this thing pretty easy to install?
$50 for that kinda of firepower..

[Bad_Dog]

if you look on the first page of this thread I posted a diagram on the shims that I use in my setup. The shims themselves are used to controll the length of the ULT on/off setup. The more the shims the less on/off pin exposed and vise-versa... since there are a few different variables between each setup (valve, input pressure, lvl10): the shims allow you to tune the ULT to YOUR setup.

The trigger stops are just set screws drilled and tapped into the trigger.

[jdaniels]

where are the extra shims purchased. The ult comes with 3 right. I looked on agd's site and didnt see extra shims. Also do you get your ult from agd or some one else. I would love to try this in my classic, its a pretty cheap upgrade if i can get it to work properly.

thanks

[Glock17]

Yes, where can the shims be purchases and how much. $50 for a upgrade that shoots that fast. Sweet.

[Plazmic]

You get the ULT from AGD. I don't think you can find it anywhere else.

The ULT comes with 2 shims installed and 3 extra, so 5 total...or is it 4 extra for 6 total. Well, one of those two, anyway.

LX shims are like putting in 2 ULT shims. You can get LX shims here:

AGD Store: LX Shims

Regular ULT shims are .005mm thick and Level 10 shims are .010mm thick, so one LX = 2 ULT shims.

I hope that helps.

[Joni]

It comes with 5 shims.

[jdaniels]

they are the same inside and outside diameter as lvl 10 but just thinner than the lvl 10 shims. Is that correct.

[Joni]

Exactly. The ULT shims are 0.005" and the lvl10 shims are 0.010"

[Plazmic]

Yes, same diameter, just half the thickness.

[OysterBoy]

When you buy Level 10, do you get LX Shims? Or, do you but not enough for extra...?

[Plazmic]

Yes, you get extra shims when you buy the LX. It's rare that anyone uses them all. I had 4 LX shims left over, myself.

[Bad_Dog]

I used my extra level 10 shims, I somehow had 4...

[jdaniels]

i ordered my ult today. I just installed my lvl X on saturday. I hope to get this work okay. If not i know where to come for help. I am using co2 so this may take some patience. I will keep you guys posted.

[Bad_Dog]

be sure to get that lvl10 fine tuned first, that way when your setting up your ULT, if you encounter a problem... you KNOW its comming from the trigger kit (thus you can fix it faster).

Just helps

[NoForts4Me]

After I switched my trigger frame from a benchy to an intelliframe, the pull is *much* nicer and no more bolt stick (see note below, however). I've been playing around with the shims some to get the best feel, but haven't settled yet.

Bad_Dog: I like your trigger stop setup. I may try that...good work.

jdaniels: I am running CO2, and not having any problems. It only seemed to freeze-up when I short stroked a lot...the intelli solved that problem, however.

NOTE: My setup will stick at the end of my CO2 tank...it will chuff once, maybe twice, then that's it, no more shooting. If anyone has one that does this, be careful...it might hold enough air to shoot the on/off assembly out at high velocity when you pull the valve out of the body, even with no tank on. Trust me. Hopefully mine is the only one that does this.

[the electrician]

I've been doing some tests with the classic valve and a homemade e-mag mod.

basically it makes it easy to try something to improve recharge rate and use a morlock board to check the time and whether or not there is actually improvement.

basically I've found out that the quad o-ring that is used on the e-mag, makes a difference on recharge time. I noticed an 8 msec improvement. it went from a minimum needed recharge time of 33 msec down to 25 msec. the standard valve went from 16 bps with no shoot down, to 18 bps with no shoot down.

so my point is, if I can find the proper size quad o-ring to fit the ULT pin(dash# 004 I beleive), it might improve the recharge rate of the standard valve. it could make just enough difference to help people who just barely get the ULT to work with the standard valve. perhaps less chuffing.

another thing to try is upping the input psi going into the gun. If anyone who is using a standard valve and ULT, has an adjustable tank, crank the psi input (into the gun, not the operating psi of the gun) up to 1000 psi.
I haven't been able to test that yet, but I think somebody should try it. between these two things, it could help the ULT work for more people with classic valves.

[monkeyduckey1]

hey i havent got a ult of my own yet, i just ordered one and mabye ill be able to answer this question when i get mine but i wanted to know exactly where these shims went. do i add the lx shims where the ult ones go. and then thats all there is to it. can someone please explain to me what is needed to be done for this to work. thanks alot for who ever can help me

[jdaniels]

alright guys i have the ult on the gun along with the lvl X. this thing shoots nice. However i am running co2 so i cant fire too much in my house. During a game when its in the 80s or higher outside i know it will do better. I have crammed the ult with shims. The question i have is i dont think the screw thing of the ult, that attaches the two halves together is on all the way. Does the on off have to be able to move. Its together but it doesnt move alot. The gun fires fine and no full auto. I did put it together once without the small white oring and the thing ripped, but i dont think that is playable, maybe. should i take one shim off to make the on off able to move.

[the electrician]

the whole thing with the shims in the ULT is to fine tune it to your particular marker. you see the hole in the valve that the on/off goes into, is is not always exactly the same. it's about.790" deep, +/- a few thousandths.

normally when you gas up the marker, the on/off and the double o-rings on top of it are pushed down by the input/operating psi, a few thousandths of an inch. it kinda moves down with the pin for a bit. the on/off stops when the bottom of it hits and rests against the inside of the body. the center o-ring of the double o-rings on top, is the one that seals the on/off pin, when you pull the trigger. since this o-ring sealing surface has been able to move down. the top of the pin goes in, more than it has too, past the seal. this reduces recharge rate.

by putting the shims in the ULT, you are making it longer and making the o-ring, that seals the top of the pin, stay up higher. so when you let go of the trigger, the pin comes down and lets air through to the dump chamber as soon as it can, without causing problems. problems would be runaway or, if you are using a LVL10, you might notice that when it pinches a ball, the bolt does not want to reset properly.(I'll explain this in the last paragraph below)

the shims go inbetween the two halves of the on/off. they sit on top of the o-ring, then screw the two halves together. (don't forget to put the little tiny black o-ring in inside the bottom of the top half of the on/off) load it up with shims if you are using a classic valve. you will probably be able to make the on/off so long that it fill up the whole on/off hole in the valve and barely fits in the body.check for runaway and check to make sure your LVL10 still resets properly.

personally , I use soft buna-n o-ring in my on/off and in the lvl10. much less friction than those hard o-rings. this can help recharge rate too. BUT it can only be done if your running air.



now, about the LVL symptom that can occur if the ULT has too many shims:

this is because the bolts movement was slowed way down by the pinched ball, and the sear comes up to reset and hits the bolt in mid stroke and cannot reset. if the pin is letting air in with the sear in this halfway position, it will not let the bolt reset properly. so if the LVL10 was working fine before the ULT install, then doesn't want to reset properly, you might be trying to use too many shims. take one out and try it again.
This usually is not a problem, this really is only a problem with electro-frames and posibly a really reactive RT.
but I wanted to bring it up, because otherwise you might think there is something wrong with your lvl10 when your out on the feild.

[silentdeath55]

wow, Electrician, you seem to know quite a bit. I never thought this thread would last this long. Great job guys!

[the electrician]

thanks for taking the time to make a video.

my opinion on the classic valve using a ULT is this:
AGD has to cover thier butts. they know that they can't guaruntee that the ULT will work in classic valves. so they say it is not recomended. I can understand why. but for people who understand how it works, it can be made to work in a classic valve with pretty damn good results.

right now I'm working on modifying the ULT on/off to work specifically with a classic valve.
I noticed that by using a test home made e-mag, I could set it to full auto and gauge the recharge rate and BPS.
the standard ULT on/off in a classic valve can just do 9 BPS.(with a lvl10)
I'm doing a few modifications andI am going to be using a quad o-ring inplace of the o-ring that seals the top of the on/off pin. then I can test and see what the increase is BPS is. I figure if I can get it up to 12bps, that would be pretty good for the average classic valve user.

I'll post the results when I finish testing.

[Bad_Dog]

Origionally posted by the electrician

the standard ULT on/off in a classic valve can just do 9 BPS.(with a lvl10)

I beg to differ... Both silentdeath55 and I have gotten our classics over 9. I recorded myself shooting live, not just air... and this is 11bps.

[the electrician]

well that's pretty damn cool.

explain the graph a bit. what are the numbers?

I usually dry fire, and plug the barrel to help create some back pressure.

It did seem that the mech mag I have shot faster than 9 bps.

still, if I do some mods to the ULT, and it shows improvement in recharge rate, that would be a good thing.
how fast do you think it can go?

[OysterBoy]

Greetings.

The white 'blips' represent a shot, and the numbers are a chronological scale, the green represents a minute, so, 11 shots per minute, at least, according to teh program I currently use, which is similar.

[Bad_Dog]

lol,
nice try Oysterboy... but I hope you mean second...

the chart is just one second of a 45 second string that I shot. I just cropped it to only show one second seeing as thats all that I needed to proove the 11bps. The second that I chose to crop just happened to be the 11th second of the recording so the numbers on top (11:000, 11:250..ect..) are just time markers (as it passes). The colored/noncolered part of the graph means nothing, I just highlighted 1 second of the string to make it easier to understand.

[OysterBoy]

LOL, yes, I meant second, whered 'minute' come from? lol

Also, yes, I understand the green is just the current selection, but it sure makes things easier to understand.

What program is that? I use sound forge 6, and its great.

[Bad_Dog]

"Acustica MP3 Audio Mixer", lol... I use it to mix songs and make stadium music

[the electrician]

after a few simple mods, I've got it doing 13 bps on the classic valve, homemade e-mag. with a quad o-ring, it might do even better.

but in the mech mag w/ classic valve, I can't shoot that fast. if the trigger pull was a bit shorter I might be able to get above 10 bps, but my fingers are not all that quick. it's my friend's mechanical mag, so I'll have to get his opinion, he's quicker than me.

I'm gonna have to take it out and put some paint thru it to make sure it's runnin' good, but I think the ULT does a damn fine job in the classic valve.

I'm still waiting to try and see if higher input psi(like 1000 psi) will help a bit with the recharge rate. I don't have an adjustable tank, but surely somebody does......

[Bad_Dog]

Well, Silentdeath55 and I made another video... can anybody host it for AO?