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Thread: Original 68 Automag rebuild

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagheera
    The trigger pull is one reason I've considered the on/off ASA, but with the Palmer's female stabilizer, I don't need an ASA. However, I keep going back to easier trigger pull reasoning. Is it possible to put the on/off ASA AFTER the stabilizer, or will I have to put it in before the stabilizer? Really, I'm just interested in the on/off function, as the stabilizer will perform the ASA function for me. Any other alternate ideas, such as an inline on/off air switch? Will that be as useful as an on/off ASA?
    Whoa. The ASA on/off has nothing to do with trigger pull. The RT on/off is part of the mag valve.

    This thing...


  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW
    Whoa. The ASA on/off has nothing to do with trigger pull. The RT on/off is part of the mag valve.

    This thing...

    Ah, I had the two mixed up. I had assumed by on/off he meant the ASA, and maybe the airflow affected the trigger pull LOL. I've been out of the game a while. If the on/off is for RT valve markers would it work on the original valve I've got? I don't think it's even classified as an RT. Of course, I could be wrong, I've been wrong before!

    Looks like maybe I should get one of these IF I have the right modification, but I don't know what mods I need first;

    http://store.airgundesignsusa.com/in...&productID=358

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagheera
    Interesting, my top two were the DW Wispur and the Hammerhead, but I've been leaning towards the Hammerhead. Thanks for another nudge. Your mag looks sharp with the Hammerhead.




    The trigger pull is one reason I've considered the on/off ASA, but with the Palmer's female stabilizer, I don't need an ASA. However, I keep going back to easier trigger pull reasoning. Is it possible to put the on/off ASA AFTER the stabilizer, or will I have to put it in before the stabilizer? Really, I'm just interested in the on/off function, as the stabilizer will perform the ASA function for me. Any other alternate ideas, such as an inline on/off air switch? Will that be as useful as an on/off ASA?
    I should have been more clear, when speaking of mags there are possibly 2 on/offs that need to be addressed. the one your thinking of that you screw your tank into, and the one in the valve seen here

    <a href="http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=7239008" target="_blank"><img src="http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/12/33920515555.jpg" alt="Click to enlarge."></a>

    the RT on/off comes standard on any rt valve. but fits nicely in classics too.
    can be found in the B/S/T usually for 20$

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagheera
    Ah, I had the two mixed up. I had assumed by on/off he meant the ASA, and maybe the airflow affected the trigger pull LOL. I've been out of the game a while. If the on/off is for RT valve markers would it work on the original valve I've got? I don't think it's even classified as an RT. Of course, I could be wrong, I've been wrong before!

    Looks like maybe I should get one of these IF I have the right modification, but I don't know what mods I need first;

    http://store.airgundesignsusa.com/in...&productID=358
    The RT on/off isnt made for classics, but it works great! and as for the ULE trigger kit. unless you want to have your valve milled its not recommended, and can cause shootdown on older valves.
    you could always pick up a stock on/off or RT and file down the pin slightly. that would give you a shorter pull. if it doesnt do what you desired then youd have the stock one as a backup

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by jade_monkey07
    The RT on/off isnt made for classics, but it works great! and as for the ULE trigger kit. unless you want to have your valve milled its not recommended, and can cause shootdown on older valves.
    you could always pick up a stock on/off or RT and file down the pin slightly. that would give you a shorter pull. if it doesnt do what you desired then youd have the stock one as a backup

    As far as increasing my BPS, I've never needed to shoot outrageously fast to score eliminations.

    I'm only interested in that which decreases my trigger pressure, so the marker moves less when I'm scoring "those impossible shots." In that case, I don't know what I would need to decrease my trigger pressure yet, but the ULE trigger kit is something I'm barely reading up on now. I defer to the knowledge of the Mag gurus in the forum who have stuck with it all these years, and didn't take a decade long hiatus like I did!

    When you referred to valve milling to prevent shootdown, are you referring to this? There was originally only one hole, but when I bought the gun I had the other 5 milled in (back in '93 or so.)


  6. #36
    Sorry to distract from the topic, but is there any drawback to the RT On/Off? Does it work with CO2? Is there any reason not to put it in a classic valves mag?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljpiller
    Sorry to distract from the topic, but is there any drawback to the RT On/Off? Does it work with CO2? Is there any reason not to put it in a classic valves mag?
    yeah it does work with co2, there isnt any draw backs as far as i know

  8. #38
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    you only really get shootdown when shooting at a higher bps. and as for the milling im speaking of. inside where the on/off goes theres a small recess on the classics for an oring that isnt there in the rt's. thats what needs to be milled out
    Quote Originally Posted by Bagheera
    As far as increasing my BPS, I've never needed to shoot outrageously fast to score eliminations.

    I'm only interested in that which decreases my trigger pressure, so the marker moves less when I'm scoring "those impossible shots." In that case, I don't know what I would need to decrease my trigger pressure yet, but the ULE trigger kit is something I'm barely reading up on now. I defer to the knowledge of the Mag gurus in the forum who have stuck with it all these years, and didn't take a decade long hiatus like I did!

    When you referred to valve milling to prevent shootdown, are you referring to this? There was originally only one hole, but when I bought the gun I had the other 5 milled in (back in '93 or so.)

    Last edited by jade_monkey07; 12-06-2007 at 09:48 PM.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by ljpiller
    Sorry to distract from the topic, but is there any drawback to the RT On/Off? Does it work with CO2? Is there any reason not to put it in a classic valves mag?
    No worries, you are on topic. We're discussing upgrading a classic marker.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jade_monkey07
    you only really get shootdown when shooting at a higher bps. and as for the milling im speaking of. inside where the on/off goes theres a small recess on the classics for an oring that isnt there in the rt's. thats what needs to be milled out
    And since you don't have an RT valve, you don't need any milling. The ULT fits in the classic and some people use it in a classic, but it doesn't make the trigger as clean as it does in RT and newer valves. The RT on/off cuts the trigger pull in half compared to the old on/off.

    I would say it has better gas flow, but there aren't a lot of old on/offs to compare with that can reach the same rate of fire as modded classics with RT on/offs.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW
    And since you don't have an RT valve, you don't need any milling. The ULT fits in the classic and some people use it in a classic, but it doesn't make the trigger as clean as it does in RT and newer valves. The RT on/off cuts the trigger pull in half compared to the old on/off.

    I would say it has better gas flow, but there aren't a lot of old on/offs to compare with that can reach the same rate of fire as modded classics with RT on/offs.

    Hmmm.... your post intrigues me... (scratches chin)

    I could always use a higher BPS even though I don't use the high rate of fire all that often. Even though I'm building a more improved "sniper" rifle (over my stock marker), I'm not foolish enough to fall into the trap of thinking I'll do fine with lower BPS all the damn time. I would like this gun to be able to move into assault mode with nothing more than a change in mindset mid-way through the game, if necessary. Hence, the reason I'd like to carry extra 3.5oz tanks along with more than one Qpod.

  12. #42
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    well if you want a stupid light trigger pull and ROF ult is one way. or http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=219595
    i have 2 of these on order, one for me and one for my buddy. this is going on my ULE minimag with rt on/off

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagheera
    Hmmm.... your post intrigues me... (scratches chin)

    I could always use a higher BPS even though I don't use the high rate of fire all that often. Even though I'm building a more improved "sniper" rifle (over my stock marker), I'm not foolish enough to fall into the trap of thinking I'll do fine with lower BPS all the damn time. I would like this gun to be able to move into assault mode with nothing more than a change in mindset mid-way through the game, if necessary. Hence, the reason I'd like to carry extra 3.5oz tanks along with more than one Qpod.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by jade_monkey07
    well if you want a stupid light trigger pull and ROF ult is one way. or http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=219595
    i have 2 of these on order, one for me and one for my buddy. this is going on my ULE minimag with rt on/off
    Wow that's pretty nuts. I don't think my stock level 7 can keep up with it. Maybe a new level 10 could.....

    Not sure I want to go THAT extreme!

    Pretty good find though, let me know how it works out for you. When I get into buckets of cash again, I'm thinking of making a sick pistol out of a mag, (or two) and this may be the way to go.

  14. #44
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    the level 7 doesnt holdback the ROF at all, level 10 just adds in antichop and lighter bolt.
    im using the minimag valve wich is lvl 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagheera
    Wow that's pretty nuts. I don't think my stock level 7 can keep up with it. Maybe a new level 10 could.....

    Not sure I want to go THAT extreme!

    Pretty good find though, let me know how it works out for you. When I get into buckets of cash again, I'm thinking of making a sick pistol out of a mag, (or two) and this may be the way to go.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagheera
    I don't think my stock level 7 can keep up with it.
    If you get a Q-loader, you will probably not miss the level 10 until you get to the last ball out of the pod, if at all. That's what makes a Q-loader really useful; you can't outshoot it without a lot of hardware and effort. The level 10 doesn't shoot notably different, as far as your fingers can tell.

    The ULT gets mixed reviews in classic valves, probably because the classic doesn't have much reactivity to kick it back out. The trick seems to be to get the oring to loosen up, which happens in the other valves but they don't have to be loose to work well.

    Of course, you would have to have a new frame for the double trigger that goes with that.

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW
    If you get a Q-loader, you will probably not miss the level 10 until you get to the last ball out of the pod, if at all. That's what makes a Q-loader really useful; you can't outshoot it without a lot of hardware and effort. The level 10 doesn't shoot notably different, as far as your fingers can tell.

    The ULT gets mixed reviews in classic valves, probably because the classic doesn't have much reactivity to kick it back out. The trick seems to be to get the oring to loosen up, which happens in the other valves but they don't have to be loose to work well.

    Of course, you would have to have a new frame for the double trigger that goes with that.
    New frame, bah! Who needs it?

    I think I'll stick with the level 7, if it ain't broke, why fix it? The only times I ever had ball chop was when I shot faster than the gravity fed hopper could keep up. Besides, the extra air rigamarole going on with the level 10 makes me nervous, I like as little monkey motion as possible. Honestly though, there's probably little to no accuracy difference between a 7 and a 10, no?

    I guess now the only thing now is to concentrate on my upcoming projects so I can make some serious cash so I'll have some play money to build this concept with, in time for some paintball in Jan/Feb.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagheera
    New frame, bah! Who needs it?

    I think I'll stick with the level 7, if it ain't broke, why fix it? The only times I ever had ball chop was when I shot faster than the gravity fed hopper could keep up. Besides, the extra air rigamarole going on with the level 10 makes me nervous, I like as little monkey motion as possible. Honestly though, there's probably little to no accuracy difference between a 7 and a 10, no?

    I guess now the only thing now is to concentrate on my upcoming projects so I can make some serious cash so I'll have some play money to build this concept with, in time for some paintball in Jan/Feb.
    There are no accuracy differences.

    The level 10 is great, even for slower shooting. How many times have you chopped due to shooting the gun at an angle where the hopper doesn't feed as fast, or when you reach the last couple of balls in your hopper and the last couple bounce off the bottom of the breach? The level 10 solves those problems. Of course, with a Q loader, you probably won't have those issues, but I don't know how it handles shooting the last balls in the que.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  18. #48
    Level 10 it is then!

  19. #49
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    With a good, constant forcefeed like a Q or a Warp I've never found a Lvl 10 to be necessary. Who needs to avoid chops from half-loaded balls when you never get half-loaded balls? Besides, I pay attention to how much paint I have left in the marker and adjust my shooting accordingly (or just reload). The level 10 will in no way decrease the accuracy of your marker, but it's just another thing to fiddle with while the level 7 requires zero adjustment. If you find chopping is an issue with your setup, you can always just get a level 10 later.

    As far as barrels go, I've got a Wisper and it's great. I don't like rifled barrels at all. They're inefficient, since so much air can escape around the ball, and the spin does nothing for the ballistics. The advantage is that since they bite into the ball a little they can shoot a wider variety of paint, but a barrel kit will do this much better anyway.

    My advice would be a Wisper rather than a Hammerhead and to skip the level 10 unless it turns out to be an issue. Whatever floats your boat, though - in the end, you're gonna be the one shooting it.

  20. #50
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    Sorry to distract from the topic, but is there any drawback to the RT On/Off? Does it work with CO2? Is there any reason not to put it in a classic valves mag?
    there is one small drawback to using the RT on/off and that is the inner oring is not in the regular classic parts kit so you have to order the oring separately or buy an RT parts kit to have spares.


    As far as level 7 vs level 10 I shoot a level 7 foamy bolt in my hyperframed micromag and almost never chop (unless i forget to turn on the hopper) and im only using a halo backman hopper. I have a level 10 that sits in my parts box that i dont use because to me it wasnt worth the trouble for what little gain it gave me. When I upgrade the electronics of my hyperframe then I may revisit my decision.

  21. #51
    Update! I'm just about ready to start getting parts and rebuilding this baby, so now I'm looking for deals on parts.



    The most expensive piece I need right now is the Q-Loader, but I haven't found any good deals yet, and I'm set on getting a Gen2. If possible, I'd like to avoid paying full price. I've checked eBay, and the "deals" are either $20 less than what they typically go for on the Qloader website, or (in some cases) even more expensive. Here's my shopping list;

    $18.00 21" braided stainless steel hose http://store.airgundesignsusa.com/in...&categoryID=16
    45 degree elbow http://www.mcmaster.com/param/asp/ps...163;1375=57321
    $145.00 Palmer stabilizer
    $79.95 200 round qloader package http://www.qloader.com/packages.html
    $20.00 Mag o-ring replacement kit http://store.airgundesignsusa.com/in...&categoryID=92
    $24.99 3.5oz co2 tank http://www.expertshot.com/35ozco2tank.html
    $2.25 qloader feed hose
    $12.95 standard elbow
    $220.00 tac-one warp right mainbody http://store.airgundesignsusa.com/in...&categoryID=81
    $115.00 bangstixx hammerhead barrel http://www.hammerheadpaintball.com/barrels.html
    $50.00 scope



    $688.14



    However, with some diligent eBay combing, and a bit of luck, I think I can build this for under $400 if I'm smart about it. One of the most crucial parts that I can't find for anything other than retail is the Tac-One Warp Right body. Any help on finding the right parts at the right price would be appreciated, thanks!

    I've decided to stick with the Level 7 bolt, and have decided to get a Hammerhead Barrel over a Wisper, after much reading and soul-searching.

  22. #52
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    how do you plan on mounting the 3.5 0z CO2 bottle under the barrel like that ?

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Coralis
    how do you plan on mounting the 3.5 0z CO2 bottle under the barrel like that ?
    Custom fabbing. The "decorative" shroud is actually functional, and will house the components giving them a solid mounting base. The hard lines, stabilizer, and most of the c02 tank will be in between the shroud, and snug within it (there will be mounting components within the shroud.) The shroud, in turn, is affixed to the Tac-One body. It's easier to see where everything will go in the gun that's 2nd from the bottom, where the body is shown at 50% or so. I will ensure that the tank itself extends far enough from the shroud so that I can grip and remove it easily, allowing for a quick change on and off the field. On extended games, I plan on carrying a few 3.5oz tanks.

    It's going to be made of either wood, aluminum, or both. I've got a few friends (and family members) who love to fab stuff, and I love to design stuff.

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Coralis
    how do you plan on mounting the 3.5 0z CO2 bottle under the barrel like that ?
    I've been looking at how other items have been mounted under the barrel on other mags, and I think I'll fab a bracket that screws directly under the body, extends out an inch or two, and has a clamp that holds the very end of the 45 degree elbow up.

    The stabilizer and hoses will run either through square or round metal tubing, and will connect to a solid bracket that holds the Q-Loader in place, in a similar fashion to how famousgamer's Snipermag held the Q-Loader in place. Being that I don't have the tools at home to work in plastics, I'll fashion the curved part of the Q-Loader bracket from wood (as I do have those tools) the rest being metal.

    The bottom metal tube will be affixed to the grip of the gun, giving it another solid mounting point, and the air line will continue through this tube.

    As a result, the whole thing will be braced on three sides, before adjoining to the body itself.
    Last edited by Bagheera; 12-21-2007 at 04:00 PM.

  25. #55
    Almost there! I've got every single part except for the main body and the scope. I'll be posting pics of the build soon. Right now I'm mocking it up with card board. For the body pieces, I'll probably be using thin wall steel or aluminum tubing, plus Sintra (a type of plastic) for the flat and sculpted pieces.

  26. #56
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    I guess you will have to paint with all of the different surfaces. I saw an interesting article about using exterior latex on model airplanes. If you put it on thin and let it dry a long time, it is fuel resistant and relatively tough. The best part was you could take a color sample to the paint counter and get it matched perfectly.

  27. #57
    Spray exterior latex? I know spray paint works well with plastic if you do thin sheets, because of the chemical reaction between the plastic and the propellant, which works as a bonding agent for the pigment. I got black primer and paint to bond to the metal extremely well, on the original main body, which was due to extreme diligence with roughing the surface and a lot of sanding. I've never had it flake off.

  28. #58
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    Here's the article. Just a thought if you have different plastics that may not like your other treatments. I've seen some model enamels wash in paintball paint, maybe ext. latex would be an alternative if you're going for the worn battle rifle look.

  29. #59
    Update: Here's the Park-52 Mag and it's aluminum skeleton, all fully functional (pic is missing the tank on the front.) I have a few more changes to the current structure, but so far it works extremely well, and with a tank on the front, it has near perfect 50/50 weight distribution at the trigger. Once I switch to a 3.5 oz tank (running a 9 right now) it should put a bit more weight towards the rear. I still need to tune the pre-winds on the Q-Loader to get them to work properly, so hopefully they'll work, considering I bought them used and the seller failed to tell me about the severe cracks on the caps of the Q-Pods.

    Once I get the skeleton where I want it to be, so that the scope sights perfectly with no more contortion on my part, then I'll add the plastic body I'm custom cutting for it.




  30. #60
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    I own a Minimag (newer one) does anyone still do this six-hole mod? What's the deal with that? Does it really make a difference?

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