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Thread: Emag valve on ULE body

  1. #1
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    Emag valve on ULE body

    I purchased an Emag valve and was looking to swap the classic valve in my current marker out. I would in affect be using the emag valve as an ReTro valve (i.e. no batteries). In order to make the emag valve compatible, would I only need to swap the classic mag on/off pin for the emag on/off? I have looked around and this seems to be the correct course of action but I was just making sure. Thank you.

  2. #2
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by 1985phenom View Post
    I purchased an Emag valve and was looking to swap the classic valve in my current marker out. I would in affect be using the emag valve as an ReTro valve (i.e. no batteries). In order to make the emag valve compatible, would I only need to swap the classic mag on/off pin for the emag on/off? I have looked around and this seems to be the correct course of action but I was just making sure. Thank you.
    Why wouldnt you just use the valve with the on/off that came with it ?



  3. #3
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    I think you need an RT on/off pin, it's like .750" where the e mag pin is .712" this ,if I remember correctly is to keep the valve from running away. The classic pin is too thick to fit either the rt or the e mag on/off.
    I took the road least traveled...now where the hell am I ?

  4. #4
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    Where do you find just an RT on/off pin?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1985phenom View Post
    Where do you find just an RT on/off pin?
    Tuna sells them, or you can buy them straight from AGD. Both are linked at the top of the page.

  6. #6
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    11 different pin lengths:

    http://store.airgundesignsusa.com/in...fo&prodId=1865

    I'd at least try the valve to see if works the way it is, you never know.


  7. #7
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    If it is one of the older emag valves with the recess at the bottom of the on-off hole and uses the urethane oring for the on-off top, then the pin length is 0.725". Install a black emag quad oring in place of the urethane one and it will work fine in your valve as is. The best thing to do is check the length of the pin. A newer emag pin length is 0.712" and should use the black quad oring. It might work as is in your gun setup, but it would probably be quite reactive. The standard pin length is 0.750" for a retro valve or classic valve..
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  8. #8
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    Thanks for all the help. I will be working on this in the coming weeks.

  9. #9
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    So I was finally able to take the mag out for its maiden voyage (for me). I am completely new to mags (but not to paintball). BTW I was one of the lucky ones with a Hawaii ULE mag... Testing my setup at the house everything shot well. There was no runaway and it was a bit reactive but not too much. I took it to the field and for the first two games it acted just like it did at the house. I went to top off my air and the next game it was like the valve got very reactive and the slightest grazing of the trigger would result in 2-4 shots before it would reengage the sear. I was not double feeding past the ball detent. On occasion I would hear a slight hiss after the trigger pull (assuming that was the lvl x), but other times it seamed that after a 2-4 shot burst the sear would fail to engage the on/off and would just pass air down the barrel. I would then have to turn off my ASA and turn it back on to reset the valve.

    Like I said I am new to mags but I am assuming it is either bolt stick or the on/off pin length. Any help/advice is appreciated...luckily I had my Hawaii classic valve in the car and I swapped it out and resumed playing.

  10. #10
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    Transferring this to tech might help you.

    But my quick question is.

    1 How wore does the edge of the sear look that connects with the bolt?
    2 How wore does the bolt look?
    3 Is there a credit card thickness gap behind the trigger to the trigger rod when it is gassed up?
    4 And how old are the Orings in the emag valve?
    5. How long is the on off pin in your valve?

  11. #11
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    It sounds like your small on-off top oring is leaking. That would cause all of the symptoms you are experiencing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackdeath1k View Post
    Transferring this to tech might help you.

    But my quick question is.

    1 How wore does the edge of the sear look that connects with the bolt?
    The edge of the sear that connects to the bolt looks good and is not rounded.
    2 How wore does the bolt look?
    The lxl 10 bolt looks good. One thing that I did notice when I disassembled it was that when you slide the bolt back toward the power tube there is a slight "sticking" point. The lxl 10 that I have on my classic valve has the same thing but to a lesser extent. I would not see this as the issue, just something I noticed.
    3 Is there a credit card thickness gap behind the trigger to the trigger rod when it is gassed up?
    Yes
    4 And how old are the Orings in the emag valve?
    I purchased the emag valve from someone who said that the O-rings were replaced and oiled. I don't know how old the O-rings are.
    5. How long is the on off pin in your valve?
    I am not sure.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    It sounds like your small on-off top oring is leaking. That would cause all of the symptoms you are experiencing.
    I took a look at the small on-off top oring and it looked good and not damaged. I will need to get an oring to replace it to see if it was in fact the problem.

  14. #14
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    I attemted to take some video to further help with the diagnosis but I have not been able to upload them yet.

    With paint: it had the same symptoms. I think that the bolt is not fully cycling...

    Without paint: it is extremely reactive, but I can fully control everything (i.e. when I let off the trigger it will stop shooting).

    Interesting note: when I first tested it weeks ago, the valve was not really reactive. It shot like my classic valve but with a much lighter trigger pull. Now it is like a machine gun!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackdeath1k View Post
    Transferring this to tech might help you.


    5. How long is the on off pin in your valve?
    On/Off pin length is 0.753"

    I hope to upload some videos tonight.

  16. #16
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  17. #17
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    The first video is the gun firing with paint and the second video is the gun firing without paint.

  18. #18
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    Is your rail bushing in place?

    It still sounds like an on-off issue. If you haven't actually changed the on-off orings, do it next before any other attempts to fix it.

  19. #19
    To get my E-Mag on\off to work correctly, I had to remove that black o-ring, and replace the on\off with an RT on\off with a .750 pin. I put the white o-ring into the hole, where the black one was. Now it's one of my best valves, that never gives me any problems.

  20. #20
    you may have 2 problems at once

    for one, your on\off pin could be too short, are you sure that it's really .753? did you calibrate the calipers? sometimes I throw in my stock E-Mag pin into the on\off when I'm bored, and this is what happens, that pin is too small, or your somehow, your trigger rod changed size, you can check the trigger rod size with your calipers as well, it should be stock, but I forget what the stock size is, I wrote it on a box somewhere, there is some rule about the distance between your trigger, and the trigger rod, should be the width of credit card thickness, legend has it - ............also, problem 2, if you're running a level 10, change the white o-ring inside the brass, Power Tube, carrier sizer piece, to make it tighter, or change the carrier for a tighter fit, for me a loose carrier causes uncontrollableness and leaking, and changing it will resume control,, I do all this, or just change the white o-ring on the on\off , sometimes that fixes everything as well



  21. #21
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    The use of the black quad oring allows you to use a pin that is 0.013" shorter. because the lower sealing edge is that much farther down than the standard round urethane oring that has the sealing edge in the middle.

    djinnform is correct, you may have two problems happening at the same time. However, a level 10 with a loose carrier will not cause uncontrollable action. If using a tighter carrier reduces the uncontrollable action, then that problem is being caused somewhere else and is just being covered up by using a tighter carrier/oring size. You always want the carrier size that is as large as you can get without producing any leaks. That reduces the bolt friction to as low a value as you can get. That way, only the bolt spring has any affect on the force required to push the bolt forward.

    In the video, you hear a tiny bit of leaking when the gun is at rest. That is most likely your level 10 bolt venting out the front. Since it is reset, that means it is sitting too far forward which indicates that you have shims installed in your powertube, you are missing your rail spacer, or your sear is worn out

  22. #22
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    Well just now getting back to looking into my issue. I calibrated my calipers and took some more measurements.Classic_onoffpin.jpg
    The first picture is of a classic on/off pin.

    Emag_onoffpin.jpg
    This is my emag on/off pin.

    Sear_wEmag.jpg
    This is a picture of the trigger rod with the emag valve. There is not a credit card gap and I believe this is due to the on/off pin pushing down on the sear and pushing the trigger rod further forward. It does not do this on my classic valve. Is my analysis correct?

    With the little amount of air I had left (1100psi) I tested it again after adding some oil. It is odd that it shoots different when their is paint and when there is no paint. This leads me to believe that It is probably an o-ring issue as several of you have suggested. The reason for this is because I have not changed anything since I have purchased this valve. However the shooting dynamics have greatly changed.

  23. #23
    It looks like an aloha mag? And if so that means it only will work in Hawaii

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1985phenom View Post
    This is a picture of the trigger rod with the emag valve. There is not a credit card gap and I believe this is due to the on/off pin pushing down on the sear and pushing the trigger rod further forward. It does not do this on my classic valve. Is my analysis correct?

    With the little amount of air I had left (1100psi) I tested it again after adding some oil. It is odd that it shoots different when their is paint and when there is no paint. This leads me to believe that It is probably an o-ring issue as several of you have suggested. The reason for this is because I have not changed anything since I have purchased this valve. However the shooting dynamics have greatly changed.
    The trigger rod isn't affected by the on-off pin length except if it can't generate enough force to fully rotate the sear assembly. The sear rotates forward and stops when the knob on the top of the sear, between the sear pin and the sear tip, makes contact with the bottom of the body. When the sear is fully reset, and the trigger is held against the safety (with the safety on), you should have a credit card gap between the back of the trigger and the front of the trigger rod. Both the classic valve and the emag valve should cause the same rotation regardless of pin used.

    The change in residual chamber pressure affects how reactive the valve is. When fired without paint, the chamber completely empties so there is a lot of pressure differential between the incoming tank pressure and zero chamber pressure. When fired with paint, not all of the air pressure leaves the chamber before the bolt resets. Therefore the pressure differential is less between the incoming tank pressure and the remaining chamber pressure. The higher differential pressure for an empty chamber gives a larger volume of incoming air pushing the trigger back with more sustained force which translates into a more reactive trigger.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by river031403 View Post
    It looks like an aloha mag? And if so that means it only will work in Hawaii
    That's what I am afraid of!! The classic valve w/ lvlx works great...it just doesnt like the emag valve...

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    The trigger rod isn't affected by the on-off pin length except if it can't generate enough force to fully rotate the sear assembly. The sear rotates forward and stops when the knob on the top of the sear, between the sear pin and the sear tip, makes contact with the bottom of the body. When the sear is fully reset, and the trigger is held against the safety (with the safety on), you should have a credit card gap between the back of the trigger and the front of the trigger rod. Both the classic valve and the emag valve should cause the same rotation regardless of pin used.

    The change in residual chamber pressure affects how reactive the valve is. When fired without paint, the chamber completely empties so there is a lot of pressure differential between the incoming tank pressure and zero chamber pressure. When fired with paint, not all of the air pressure leaves the chamber before the bolt resets. Therefore the pressure differential is less between the incoming tank pressure and the remaining chamber pressure. The higher differential pressure for an empty chamber gives a larger volume of incoming air pushing the trigger back with more sustained force which translates into a more reactive trigger.
    So your assesment is to change the on/off o-ring. I will look to change that out later this week and see if that changes anything. Thanks for the help.

  27. #27
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    A quick test would be to install the classic on-off assembly into the emag valve and try it. If it works, then you know the emag on-off is the problem and not some other part of the valve.

  28. #28
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    This was from today. I just put a quad o-ring in and oiled the on/off and power tube. This has the lvl10. Any thoughts to what my problem is??http://ULE automag leak: <a href="ht...Ern0Piixkw</a>

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  30. #30
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    Any leak from the on-off that you can hear , is caused by one of the bottom orings, not the top ones. If you hear a leak from the on-off area, it is more likely to be air leaking from the level 10 than air from the on-off.

    From your video, it appears that your issue is more level 10 related than on-off related. I am sure you did this, but make sure your shims are removed from the powertube.

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