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Thread: possible regulator issue need help

  1. #1

    possible regulator issue need help

    Was wondering short of trying a different tank/reg what's the next best way to determine if I'm having a regulator issue?

    Last Xmas I got a 62ci/3000psi tank with preset 800-850 psi Myth reg as a present from my wife so I could start getting back into the sport, after about 8 years on the side lines. At the time I had a classic valve and it seemed to work "ok" as long as I kept the ROF lower then about 4BPS. If I tried to shoot faster I would start getting shoot down, double feeds/ double firing, chuffing and ball chops. The faster I tried shooting the worse these problems and once I'd get to the point of trying to shoot say 10 BPS+ the entire system would almost entirely stop. I'm talking no real cycling of the action just little sputters of air. I replaced a few of the orings in the valve and the mainspring which didn't seem to help much and just limped along with it like this until my birthday when I got an x-valve.

    After installing the x-valve I noticed I was having a lot of the same issues I had with my old classic valve. Granted I didn't try actually running paint through it but when I tried shooting it fast it too would stop cycling. I've tried tightening the reg nut assy no help there, I've also tried running tons of oil through the system and no dice. I'm figure it is safe to assume all the orings in the valve should be good as it is brand new. I actually went so far as to take the entire gun apart aside from the valve and wipe down and clean everything out. I made small adjustments to the trigger rod as it seemed to be touching the trigger when gassed just to make sure this wasn't contributing to the issue. When I tried firing the gun again I had the same problem. I did notice when checking the sear and trigger rod that the sear seemed quite worn and was wondering if perhaps this could be contributing to the issue? I also tried testing the level 10 with a dental pick handle and the bolt seemed to stop and vent air when hitting the handle and reset so I don't think the level 10 is part of the problem. The only difference I've really noticed with the x-valve vs the classic is when firing fast the bolt does seems to stick but will only do so for about 7-10 seconds before resetting on its own. It will also sometime make a slight hiss for 3-4 seconds prior to doing this. I'm not really sure what to do at this point, I considered trying to make minor adjustments to the level 10 just to see what impact that had but I don't want to end up trying to fix something that isn't broken and create more problems.

    On a side note, I've noticed both my classic valve on off and x-valve on/off seem to have metal worn down around the edges of the on/off assy. When I took the gun apart I didn't notice anything in the mainbody that should be causing this but then again it is a really old mainbody(even has some rust in a few places) so I wouldn't be totally shocked if it was implicated.

    Here's a pic of the gun



    Here's a pic of the sear

    Last edited by Dayspring; 05-29-2014 at 11:01 PM. Reason: Fixed Image URLs.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Pics aren't showing up on my end, but assuming you have two ports on your ASA, installing a pressure gague would probably give a lot more insight, what you are seeing is basically what I see when my tank is in the 400-500 PSI range.

  3. #3
    When I try to get some more air for additonal testing this weekend I'll see if there's something I can connect the tank to to get a good output reading. I would hope the tank isn't out putting in the 400-500 psi range. In fact I would think that advertising an output of 800 psi and selling something out putting under 700 psi would be asking for trouble. I know the tank and reg aren't great but to not even be able to fire faster then 4bps as a result of it is just sad. Part of me is kind of hoping it isn't the reg causing these issues just because of the cost likely involved in correcting the issue but at this point it seems like the most likely suspect. I'm just suprised other markers are not affected adversly by these regs. I mean anything under 8 or 9 bps should be nothing for a reg so I'd think to not be able to manage that wouldn't just impact automags.

    Also the pics will work but you have to open them in another browser window not sure why they are not linking directly to the thread.

  4. #4
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    Take a picture of the tank reg and post it. Want to see what we're working with.

  5. #5
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    sounds like your starving for air. you tank may not be flowing enough.

  6. #6
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    Sounds like the tank output isn't high enough. I once had a myth reg on a tank that was supposed to be HP, but was only putting out 650psi. Get yourself a gauge and see what its really putting out.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicholas70 View Post
    I'm just suprised other markers are not affected adversly by these regs. I mean anything under 8 or 9 bps should be nothing for a reg so I'd think to not be able to manage that wouldn't just impact automags.
    Most markers do not require high input pressure to get full flow through their high pressure regulators, automags are a known exception, especially with the xvalve where the recharge time is only limited by input pressure.

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    A bottle reg can show 850psi at a gauge, but not recharge very well at all. Poor recharge from the bottle can be downstream restrictions, or in the ASA and reg pin fit. It's not so common lately, but we used to get combinations of ASAs and valve pins that were either not depressing the pin far enough, or pressing it down too far where the ASA pin crowded the reg outlet.

    If that benchmark foregrip is gas-thru, you could pass through that as a volume chamber. If that lets you shoot a few more balls at speed, then that would also point to the bottle reg.

    There are no metal to metal movements in the on/off. If it has any scuffs, it should be from moving in and out of the body for assembly, or floating around in a tool box. You may have the trigger rod a little long and be mashing the sear back on the bottom of the on/off, but that's not much if you keep that area clean. That might be your sear wear problem. When you air up the marker, point it down (safely) and let the trigger hang loose. You should have a credit card's width or so between the trigger rod and the back of the trigger. If the trigger rod is snug up on the trigger, it could be causing sear wear by not letting the sear catch all of the way.

  9. #9
    When I first tested the x-valve the trigger rod and trigger only had the slightest gap. I'd say about the thickness of a thick piece of paper vs a credit card. This is why I decided to go ahead and adjust the trigger rod and check out the sear. Now there's enough space between the trigger and rod that it should not be an issue, I'd say enough space for a thick credit card to fit between. I also tried at one point with even more additional space between the trigger and rod but these changes didn't seem to impact the operation of the gun much so it would seem the bulk of my problems are elsewhere. I'm not opposed to replacing the sear if need be or even the reg but then again I don't want to be in a position where I'm just throwing parts at the problem and crossing my fingers. The air line I'm using is a steel one that doesn't go through the foregrip and sadly I don't have the parts on hand to try running it through there. Before I shelved the marker back in the day it worked with the steel line and the adapter that the tank hooks to on the gun but this was with a different tank / reg both of which bit the hydrotest dust. I'm just hoping when I try to get air tomorrow that someone around will have SHP reg(probably not likely) and tank I can test with or at least something I can use to measure the output on the tank I do have. If not the only other things I can think to do that doesn't involve buying more parts and hoping for the best is hooking up the classic valve and try running CO2 though it and comparing it to the HPA tank I have. If that doesn't work I'll try to make a short detailed video showing everything that's happening with the marker so at least if I go down the parts road I've got the best possible educated guesses I can get.

    Also here are some pictures of the tank, something I did notice that may or may not be an issue is the pin in the valve appears on the tank appears slightly off center. Go figure I suppose, it does say made in Tiawan.









    And here's a pic of the box the tank and reg came in
    Last edited by Dayspring; 05-30-2014 at 03:27 PM. Reason: Fixed Image URLs.

  10. #10
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    FYI - you need to change how you're posting images.

    When you go to the following page:
    http://s30.photobucket.com/user/then...56169.jpg.html

    There's a row of icons (Facebook, etc). At the end of that line is a chain link icon. Click on that. It will pop up a menu. Click on the BOTTOM line in the menu that pops up - it says "IMG codes for Forums/Boards."

    Paste THAT into the post. What you're posting isn't working.

  11. #11
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    Now - what you need to do is get a gauge on the ASA where you screw the tank in (if it's a 2 hole ASA, the side OPPOSITE of the air line will work. If it's a 1 hole ASA, remove the air line and screw a gauge in.)

    You need a gauge that will go up to 1200psi. This will allow you to figure out what the tank output ACTUALLY is, not what they SAY it is. Until we figure that part out, we can't necessarily fix the issue.

    Lastly - benchmark frames are TERRIBLE for tolerances. You end up playing guess & check more often than not when it comes to sear measurements, etc.

  12. #12
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    You can take the top part off of your reg with a 9/16 Allen and see if you have a low pressure spring (gold) or high pressure spring (black) of course let all the air out first hope that helps a little.

    http://youtu.be/zTsSsLPfQ28

  13. #13
    Cyco-Dude Guest
    i think trying a different tank would be a good idea. you don't need a tank with a shp regulator, just any regulator that outputs high pressure (~850 psi). checking what pressure your tank reg is outputting would be the next thing; lobo's suggestion is a good one and would be easy to see what your have. also, spider made a good point about starving the tank. how far do you screw your tank in?

    your problems with shooting faster could be sloppy trigger control? gotta pull it all the way, and release it all the way. also, what hopper are you using? gravity hoppers will not be able to keep up; you need at least an agitated hopper.

  14. #14
    I screw the tank in as far as it will go. I did drain the remaining air from the tank and removing the spring as shown in the youtube video and it appears to be the dark grey / black spring seemed to have some grease on it which I'll assume is normal. Hopefully I'll be able to get more air tomorrow to test with and be able to test another tank or get a good output measure from the tank I'm using.

  15. #15
    Cyco-Dude Guest
    hmm...i wonder if screwing the tank in all the way is possibly starving it? try this: just screw the tank in until the pin opens, than give it about a quarter turn after that.

  16. #16
    I will try that as soon as I can get to the field to get some air and hopefully another tank to test with. Was going to go today but got called into work. I did call the field I was going to go to today and they said they didn't have a gauge that worked to measure the output on my tank, so I'm going to have to hope someone deciding to play the day I go to get air has one. I'm kind of wondering if I can't get a gauge if I could get a ballpark idea of the tanks output by just filling that tank, securing it and venting the valve at its max capacity and just notate the internal tank pressure when the airflow starts to drop off.

  17. #17
    Went to the field today gassed up the mag and it shot fine. The only two things that were different was that I had the barrel installed and I only screwed the air tank in about 3/4ths as far as I could vs all the way as I had been doing. I'm glad that it was a fix that did not cost as much as a new reg. Apparently the field that I go to has had the same problem with a few of their rentals. Not sure why I had never heard of this type of problem until someone mentioned it here, but thanks a lot for the advice.

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