lets get the hAir automag to the people

[knownothingmags]

who is up for getting this to be a staple in pneumags.
im up for getting this running.

any input?

and if you think the hAir trigger automag made by colin, isn't all its cracked up to be please speak up.

I would have guess someone would have made a kit to replicate this, since it would not infringe on patents if sold in parts.
on that note are we really doing this patent dispute crap on automags?

lets hear everone's thoughts who knows what this is.

ideas,
gripes,
and insights?

[need4reebs]

ya mite wanna chat with Colin first yo! that was his baby…but if he say its Kool…hells yeah…if not…at least ya asked first.

[knownothingmags]

ya mite wanna chat with Colin first yo! that was his baby…but if he say its Kool…hells yeah…if not…at least ya asked first.

yeah I threw a line out there to him on DW site,
I don't have much phone time now adays.

and I wasn't sure if he was able to chime in on here still.

here is hoping.
it would be really great to hear from him first, that is definitely my intention is talk to him first.

[going_home]

I might have this wrong, but it's my understanding there are three patents for this.

Deadlywind, Proteam Products, and GeForce.

GeForce had a preorder that was a complete debacle like preorders tend to be on AO.

I believe they are in Canuckistan and that may be why they didn't get a C&D from the other two

patent holders.

But it's a Mexican standoff here in the US with the other two.

So getting either company to invest more time and money to make

a product under threat of litigation is probably not going to happen.

That's why all the different AO'ers were selling the parts for DIY'ers.

[knownothingmags]

I might have this wrong, but it's my understanding there are three patents for this.

Deadlywind, Proteam Products, and GeForce.

GeForce had a preorder that was a complete debacle like preorders tend to be on AO.

I believe they are in Canuckistan and that may be why they didn't get a C&D from the other two

patent holders.

But it's a Mexican standoff here in the US with the other two.

So getting either company to invest more time and money to make

a product under threat of litigation is probably not going to happen.

That's why all the different AO'ers were selling the parts for DIY'ers.

that's what I figured,
just got doing the research on what happened with this.

so I guess ill just do my own thing for myself. lol

[magman313]

What would really be the difference between a well set up pnue and how the hair was? Ps i dont remember all the details of the hair trigger.

[knownothingmags]

What would really be the difference between a well set up pnue and how the hair was? Ps i dont remember all the details of the hair trigger.

my understanding it the best setup ever made for a pneumag, very responsive and correct.

[OPBN]

Wasn't part of the problem too that no one ever gave much specifics regarding the exact details of the setup that made it work so well? Someone on the AGD FB page has been posting pics up of the marker with the Hair on it. Only showing general pics, not internal details.

By the same token it irritates the crap out of me that someone would uphold a patent on something that they zero intentions of ever producing. Considering I know at least one individual contacted one of the patent holders directly and must have gotten rebuffed since nothing has ever come of it. Seems like there should be some sort of patent clause where you only get X number of years to start using a patent or you give up rights.

[yellowmitten]

Wasn't part of the problem too that no one ever gave much specifics regarding the exact details of the setup that made it work so well? Someone on the AGD FB page has been posting pics up of the marker with the Hair on it. Only showing general pics, not internal details.

By the same token it irritates the crap out of me that someone would uphold a patent on something that they zero intentions of ever producing. Considering I know at least one individual contacted one of the patent holders directly and must have gotten rebuffed since nothing has ever come of it. Seems like there should be some sort of patent clause where you only get X number of years to start using a patent or you give up rights.

Is it not 20 Years?

A patent provides protection for up to twenty years, counting from the filing date (the date given with reference numeral 22 on the front page). US patents with a filing date before June 8, 1995 provide protection for up to seventeen years counting from the date of grant (the date given with reference numeral 45), or 20 years from the filing date, whichever expires later.

However, the patent holder is required to pay maintenance fees to keep his patent valid. In most European countries, these fees are yearly. The USA requires maintenance fees to be paid at 3.5 years, 7.5 years, and 11.5 years after issuance. If the holder does not pay a maintenance fee, the patent becomes abandoned. Many patents are abandoned before the full twenty year term because the cost of the maintenance fees (which increases with the lifetime of the patent) exceeds the patent's value.



http://www.iusmentis.com/patents/faq/general/

[yellowmitten]

Maybe no one has payed the fees? No Patents are exclusively national affairs. A US patent does not help you at all against someone who makes your invention in Canada..

[zondo]

Tracy was following this thread on MCB regarding a re-make of Zap's cheater (post#97): http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/d...st-thread.html

But didn't elaborate on what they were going to do.

[OPBN]

Tracy was following this thread on MCB regarding a re-make of Zap's cheater (post#97): http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/d...st-thread.html

But didn't elaborate on what they were going to do.

Part of me wonders what exactly they would do if someone actually made something? Is it really worth paying a lawyer and all to enforce patents that you don't consider valuable enough to do something with?

[zondo]

Part of me wonders what exactly they would do if someone actually made something? Is it really worth paying a lawyer and all to enforce patents that you don't consider valuable enough to do something with?

IIRC, they got involved with the GForce frame, but not sure to what extent they got involve to slow the production/development.

But I'm pessimistic as to whether it would be worth a company investing in a factory setup pneumatic trigger. Especially with all the DIY frames that are floating around. I think the time for bringing this to the marketplace has past.

[OPBN]

IIRC, they got involved with the GForce frame, but not sure to what extent they got involve to slow the production/development.

But I'm pessimistic as to whether it would be worth a company investing in a factory setup pneumatic trigger. Especially with all the DIY frames that are floating around. I think the time for bringing this to the marketplace has past.

Which is kind of my point. If a small shop can do something with it, why not let them? I can't imagine it would be lucrative to really concern themselves with someone making 20-30 of them at a time. Now if at some point, the numbers explode and someone is selling them 100's or 1000's at a time, maybe it would be worth it to pursue going after them. Even G-
Force only sold probably a few hundred of them at most didn't they? Would cost them more in lawyers fees to enforce a C&D then would even be made on them.

[Chrome]

Kind of a counterpoint, but isn't that kind of what happened with the gog enmey? Some industrious tinkerers ripped the electronics out of an ion and made a pretty fun mech gun. Gog (or whatever they want to call themselves this week) took the design, ran with it at a production scale, and is selling (comparatively) piles of cheap guns that seem to be pretty popular. Each of these guns, if the mechanical triggering system were patented in this application, could be pulling in a reasonable licensing fee for the guys who took the time to figure the thing out in the first place.

I'm not saying a pneu trigger would definitely create another 'enmey', but I would be guessing the patent holders are holding their cards to avoid losing out on just such an opportunity, regardless of how doing just that is affecting the market and by extension the ability for such an opportunity to otherwise develop. Kind of a catch-22 with no good answer.

[zondo]

Which is kind of my point. If a small shop can do something with it, why not let them? I can't imagine it would be lucrative to really concern themselves with someone making 20-30 of them at a time. Now if at some point, the numbers explode and someone is selling them 100's or 1000's at a time, maybe it would be worth it to pursue going after them. Even G-
Force only sold probably a few hundred of them at most didn't they? Would cost them more in lawyers fees to enforce a C&D then would even be made on them.

Here's where paintball boards get fun, discussions on patent law! I doubt any other sport has made so many experts in this area that aren't actually lawyers as paintball has.

Interesting point, but you're delving into ethics questions that can only be answered through negotiations with PTP. I'm not sure what's all wrapped up in the PTP patent, but it's still kind of a dick move to just do it and assume it won't be worth PTP or DW to come after people making money off their products. I'm not saying it can't be worked out with them, but I don't think that it will happen very quick.

I thought there was a drop dead time where the market could come after the patent... 18 years is stuck in my head, but I'm not sure.

[OPBN]

No less ethical then sitting on a patent and not using it in my book.

And actually doesn't the Enmy actually use the same tech as a Pneumag? Seems like I remember something about that.

[yellowmitten]

Don't think so.

[Nobody]

It doesn't matter if someone made it and wants to sit on it. I know someone who made a gun, did all the work to get it up to a working gun, but it failed. It will never be made.

Also, GoG can not have the patent on the pneumatics aspect since there are prior examples that predate what GoG might have. I am no expert, nor a ranking amateur.

Anyway, if the hAIR mag is a unicorn, let it be. Everyone talks a big game about doing these big projects, but yet when push comes to shove, the masses disappear.