since the cockers guys getting some love maybe we can too?

[dodge3500]

Well with the twisters and sfl autocockers coming back from the grave how about a xmag release for us automag fans?maybe a Luke's mag?or a xmt mag?I'm talking a pre order completed and anodized mag.My ripper mag is out for anno and its been a fun but costly adventure that I don't plan on doing again any time soon but I sure would jump on a sweet release of a xmag or a emag,karta mag so on and so fourth.I mean if they can bring back shocktec sfl autocockers and bps twisters the old school market is there.I would definitely get on a pre order on a sweet arse mag.
What do you guys think?or am I rambling about something that's never gonna happen much less even possible?

[going_home]

I think your biggest hurdle is getting 25 people lined up with money in hand for a prebuy.

No one would want to incur all the expense of buying parts and materials without most of the money up front.

And most informed AO members know the history of prebuys on this forum.

I waited what, almost 6 years for the Logic mag that finally showed up in pieces in a box.

Took Scott months to get it going.

[SummaryJudgement]

Well with the twisters and sfl autocockers coming back from the grave how about a xmag release for us automag fans?maybe a Luke's mag?or a xmt mag?I'm talking a pre order completed and anodized mag.My ripper mag is out for anno and its been a fun but costly adventure that I don't plan on doing again any time soon but I sure would jump on a sweet release of a xmag or a emag,karta mag so on and so fourth.I mean if they can bring back shocktec sfl autocockers and bps twisters the old school market is there.I would definitely get on a pre order on a sweet arse mag.
What do you guys think?or am I rambling about something that's never gonna happen much less even possible?

Where a are Twisters being listed/sold at?

[going_home]

Where a are Twisters being listed/sold at?

http://www.committedpaintball.com/

My google-fu is strong tonight.

[Nobody]

This will not happen. I truly wish to be wrong on this, but after some talks with a small shop this weekend, it all but confirms that the odds are that you will be struck by lightning, while getting bitten by a shark, while sinking a hole in one.

1) pre-order history. It plain sucks on AO. I can not blame anyone, but the history is the history. It will take the right product, at the right time to get that magical number to push this through.

2) 50lbs of cash. That is basically what it would take for someone to come up with a design, cad it up, run prototypes to check tolerances and code, buy raw material, take it to the machinists and get something working. That isn't even taking into consideration the small stuff like screws, the valves, the parts that make up the guns. Each person involved needa to be payed for their time and running their machines. Even if you have someone in that line able to do 2 jobs, it might lower some of the costs down, but still. Its not a cheap process in any way. For example, if the proposed gun is Emag based, is there enough noids? Can new noids be sourced? What about the sears? See what i mean...

3) clearity of project. What would you want? There are plenty of people that each would want an Xmag or an SFL, or something new; but who gets to decide? You need a head leader of the project to make the tough decissions, and majority rules does not work here.

4) where is the line drawn? Do people want a production gun or a base that people could customize? Or conversely, what parts would people consider keeping(angel detents, angel threaded feednecks) versus going totally new for just the sake of updating. This falls back to the project head...


I would love to see an Inception body or an updated Xmag or SFL, but its not going to happen. And i hate to crush people's dreams, but someone has to.

[SummaryJudgement]

http://www.committedpaintball.com/

My google-fu is strong tonight.

Must be, I couldn't find that, just old posts on MCB and custom cockers.

I find it hilarious that the resurrection and Inception versions are priced what they are, and now these Twisters! "Closed-bolt accuracy" and "classic design" being thrown around left and right. A year ago the kiddies would have been calling cockers "old guns" or "outdated". Now mech cockers are going for $500-$1000, ha!

I was a cocker guy before I got into mags (of course this was 1997), and my collection is almost entirely mags and cockers. I think my Blazer, Viking, and B5 are the only non-mag/cocker markers I own.

I love it! Maybe mags will make an industry wide comeback as well 8D

Oh, and I have owned two Twisters and regret selling both of them...

[dodge3500]

Both sfl and twister sounding good so far for what is being offered but they ain't no mag

[going_home]

http://www.committedpaintball.com/Pr...ProductCode=F1

Anyone notice the release/unveil date lol ?

FULL MARKER UNVEIL - 2.22.2014


2014 Axe is about your best bet for a customizable marker right now, with all the bodies on wickedsports.com .

[dodge3500]

No way I'm building an axe now or ever unless they being the whole empire kee company stops buying American paintball company's and shipping them overseas. They really irritated me when they bought out a paintball manufacturer and shipped it to like twian or something like that.70 something American jobs were lost but I am pro USA made anyways.

[ScottyBeans]

I agree that it'd be sweet and I'd be interested in a new custom mag if it was done right, like niche is doing things for cockers. Talking simple, mechanical, and custom. Would love to see a Luke/xmt collaboration, didn't they joke about this before?

I haven't been around long enough to experience the botched preorders here before but I always love it when someone has a dream and takes the initiative to make it happen. I would not be in if this was going to be a chore for the person running the show.

I also bought a landfall twister F5 haha.

[cougar20th]

We mag guys have had alot of new stuff over the last few years between Vd, Magnus, XMT, Luke. Cocker guys not so much.
The issue is with a complete gun at a 25 gun run you would be looking at a retail price somewhere around 2000-3000. If not more. Ive talked to some shops about doing something. Not many if any are going to spend that.

Cockers have seen a resurgance. Some like the sfl, twister are rereleases to older designs while others like Inception and Niche are pushing the boundaries.

Example my Niche Nemesis. I designed them and the other guys machined and built them.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps8070bbb4.jpg

Niche Banshee. Another of my designs. Still being machined. Intergrating the Va and using ego feednecks. Along with a huge list of differances. Ther will be limited numbers of themed guns. Currently a diamond pattern, Hawaiian patern and the standard blank guns.
http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/ro...e2e64.jpg.html
http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/ro...fbb00.jpg.html

L.A. Hitman Banshee team gun. They'll be using Niche guns this year from what Im being told.
http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/ro...920e9.jpg.html

[keiko_819]

all I want is renie's unibody...

[dboggs79]

The other point that should be made is, the availability of aftermarket components still available . With pump kits and pneumatics stil widely available new, the cocker kits are an easier sale. Sadly mags don't really have that. Mostly because as we know, there wasn't really a need for aftermarket components . The factory components worked as well or better than anything that was produced by anyone else. As sad as it may be, I think its as good as it's gonna get for us here. Which leads me to thank XMT, Luke and Cougar and anyone I'm forgetting for their work in keeping us with the new stuff that is available to us.

[steve_81]

The Automag guys sure are a self defeating bunch. Whenever a new idea comes along all you hear is..."nope, it will never work." and "good luck with that." Can we have some positive attitudes for awhile? If Autococker enthusiast's can do it why can't we?...are we saying that they are better then us?

[cockerpunk]

This will not happen. I truly wish to be wrong on this, but after some talks with a small shop this weekend, it all but confirms that the odds are that you will be struck by lightning, while getting bitten by a shark, while sinking a hole in one.

1) pre-order history. It plain sucks on AO. I can not blame anyone, but the history is the history. It will take the right product, at the right time to get that magical number to push this through.

2) 50lbs of cash. That is basically what it would take for someone to come up with a design, cad it up, run prototypes to check tolerances and code, buy raw material, take it to the machinists and get something working. That isn't even taking into consideration the small stuff like screws, the valves, the parts that make up the guns. Each person involved needa to be payed for their time and running their machines. Even if you have someone in that line able to do 2 jobs, it might lower some of the costs down, but still. Its not a cheap process in any way. For example, if the proposed gun is Emag based, is there enough noids? Can new noids be sourced? What about the sears? See what i mean...

3) clearity of project. What would you want? There are plenty of people that each would want an Xmag or an SFL, or something new; but who gets to decide? You need a head leader of the project to make the tough decissions, and majority rules does not work here.

4) where is the line drawn? Do people want a production gun or a base that people could customize? Or conversely, what parts would people consider keeping(angel detents, angel threaded feednecks) versus going totally new for just the sake of updating. This falls back to the project head...


I would love to see an Inception body or an updated Xmag or SFL, but its not going to happen. And i hate to crush people's dreams, but someone has to.

it could happen if someone just wanted to do is a project and not make any money off it.

the issue is people's time is valuable. not just in terms of dollars, but family, friends, actually playing paintball etc etc. it has to be worthwhile for someone to take on the task, and that usually means $$$$. which, as pointed out, is really tight, and by no means guaranteed.

[ScottyBeans]

The issue is with a complete gun at a 25 gun run you would be looking at a retail price somewhere around 2000-3000. If not more. Ive talked to some shops about doing something. Not many if any are going to spend that.

I've always wondered about this. It seems like when new autocockers come out they come fully complete at around the $1000 price range (twister, nemesis, SFL in 2009, etc), which in my opinion is a reasonable price for a new, custom, high-end mech paintball gun made in a limited run.

But whenever I hear about a mag build in a similar vein, I'm always hearing "$2000 or more" which seems kind of silly. Is there a reason custom mags cost so much more to build in small runs?

[OPBN]

I've always wondered about this. It seems like when new autocockers come out they come fully complete at around the $1000 price range (twister, nemesis, SFL in 2009, etc), which in my opinion is a reasonable price for a new, custom, high-end mech paintball gun made in a limited run.

But whenever I hear about a mag build in a similar vein, I'm always hearing "$2000 or more" which seems kind of silly. Is there a reason custom mags cost so much more to build in small runs?

Agreed. If X valves are $250 from AGD and frames can be had for $200, Bodies and rails for $300-400, why can't an out the door, all new mechanical Mag be offered for $1k or less?

[knownothingmags]

Agreed. If X valves are $250 from AGD and frames can be had for $200, Bodies and rails for $300-400, why can't an out the door, all new mechanical Mag be offered for $1k or less?

I like your thought process and breakdown.

so all someone would need to do is throw up 25,000$ to get 25 made?
would we expect this to be a sole venture, or a collaboration of funds from multiple parties?

if so money shouldn't be a problem for a single person right?
or am I in lala land?

[going_home]

all I want is renie's unibody...

What will his wife think ?

[dodge3500]

Lol you guys got too much negative waves going on.

[Bunny]

Lol you guys got too much negative waves going on.

lol. There are alot of great points in this thread so far. I feel like Luke and XMT have been filling the AGD void for a while now and i'm happy with the way things have been going. They both know how to cater to this weirdo/bizarre automag market we have going on.

[vintage]

everyone start playing powerball(if you not already) and when one of us wins it money will not be a problem. i have a long list of mag things i want to do when i win all that money.

[Nobody]

it could happen if someone just wanted to do is a project and not make any money off it.

the issue is people's time is valuable. not just in terms of dollars, but family, friends, actually playing paintball etc etc. it has to be worthwhile for someone to take on the task, and that usually means $$$$. which, as pointed out, is really tight, and by no means guaranteed.

I would love for someone to prove me wrong and get this done. I know that even getting super small runs of certain ICD specific items costs an arm and a leg, and that was mostly from the people that had the cads. Starting fresh or relatively freah is an uphill battle. Whether or not it has been extensions of where the industry is going, hoseless guns for example, or just furthering what we already have, like new and improved rails and bodies.

[knownothingmags]

everyone start playing powerball(if you not already) and when one of us wins it money will not be a problem. i have a long list of mag things i want to do when i win all that money.

im sure there are people who are there already been there done that type of thing, or havnt even won the lottery just have the cash .
rich don't get rich by spending it. :P

[SN toter]

I'd love to see another custom unibody like that XMT shockwave - packaged with lukes mini-vert grip frame and a nice foregrip. Then users can drop in a valve and add a barrel - donesies.

Then have em all anodized to match.

Tell you what - I do anodizing, I'll offer to do the polishing and anodizing at half-off if someone gets this off the ground.

[WholemealDrop]

The thing with the cocker stuff is there are guys with the money and know-how to make this a business venture and not just a one off projects. Autocockers are back on the rise. Can't really pin it down to one thing but with Empire bringing back a modern cocker pump and mech with the Sniper and Ressurection platform definitely brought them into the light. Simon at Inception was doing production runs to lower the overall cost of each kit and Niche is a passionate group of guys with skills to make something they wanted and offered it up to a production run. Mag users are generally a smaller group. In my local area I think I've seen 1-2 guys have a mag at various fields but there will be 10+ guys running cockers either as pumps or mech with a few electros too.

I wish mags would make a come back too seeing as they are way easier to maintain than cockers. As OPBN stated, no real reason a new mech mag couldn't be made for under $1k and that is if you sourced each piece part by part. If someone made everything in house: valve, frame, body/rail, with a few off the shelf parts: feedneck, detents, misc hardware, I don't see why a production run couldn't be done. But ultimately it comes back to a business aspect as others have said: who is going to foot the bill while they wait for these to get sold?

FYI I just got into mags so not the most knowledgable about them or the community yet.

[steve_81]

I like your thought process and breakdown.

so all someone would need to do is throw up 25,000$ to get 25 made?
would we expect this to be a sole venture, or a collaboration of funds from multiple parties?

Why don't we do it the same way Dodge was attempting to sell their Dodge Dart?...break down the costs and pay for each individual step or process separately. That way you aren't looking at $25,000 as a whole but a bunch of smaller easily obtainable amounts? Break it down and create a timeline. People are more likely to help out when they see a smaller amount....just a thought. I would be willing to do a fundraiser outside of Automags.org in order to raise some revenue to get things rolling. So whose in? who wants to help create a check list/timeline for this project?

[dodge3500]

I'm hoping for a combined effort xmt/Luke mag ,that's two folks that turn out great products with no worries about getting what you pay for.

[OPBN]

Obviously this is all just tossing crap around as no one it seems is looking to step up and plunge into this, but I'll add a couple of thoughts.

While the idea of doing a part at a time sounds good, a lot of people were burnt by VD who did this exact thing. People who bought bodies were left without rails. People who bought bodies and rails were left without foregrips etc. It would be nice to see someone sell a complete limited run semi custom Mag that would need only a valve, barrel or something to complete it. Maybe like the Niche Cockers, giving the option to send in parts to get anodized with it so there is consistency. But I say that as I'm looking at my PP account and weeping a little right now.

[BigEvil]

There is a huge problem with AGD stuff that doesn't exist with cocker stuff - AGD parts were for the most part not designed with manufacturing in mind and thus the costs are exponentially higher. On top of that, the paintball market is not what it was 5-10 years ago. There is no market for $500 mag bodies anymore.