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Thread: since the cockers guys getting some love maybe we can too?

  1. #31
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    Ok guys heres the break down as I see it.

    Rough numbers for a Emag
    1) Unibody, something with the complexity of a shockwave (Make) $400
    2) frame (Make, emag length) $300
    3) Valve (from AGD) $250
    4) Battery (from AGD) $89
    5) PCB (Reflex Customs) $200
    6) Trigger (Make) $45
    7) Grips (Make) $35
    8) Sear, Sear pin, Safety, selector, $55 +$7 +$7 +$15= $84
    9) Battery pack (Make) $50??
    10) Misc little things $20
    11) Barrel (Buy) $60
    12) feedneck $20??
    12)Ano (Plan Black) $100

    So a total of Approx $1600 before

    13) Assembly? time = Money. It took 3 guys several days to fully assembly & test the 30 Niche Nemesis cockers.
    14) Profit ?? No one works for free (Most of the time.)

    Now the prices on some may be less but these are roughly what Ive been told by several non paintball machine shops for a run 25-50. Of course more means a slight quantity price break.

    Now a Mech only Automag you could possibly drop about 5-600 off the cost.

    The thing to remember is when say AGD or any big company does a run of parts its usually hundreds of parts. And if they own thier machines they can internally charge less.
    Quote Originally Posted by dano_____ View Post
    I keep forgetting to not feed my mags after midnight so they seem to multiply regularly.

  2. #32
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    You lost me at Emag length. lol.

    But in all seriousness, if going for an Electro, why not dump the antiquated and heavy Emag frame and go with something like the E90? Lighter, works just as well, and the body can still be non-Emag length. Heck, while at it, why not make it an EP mag with matching LPR foregrip?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    You lost me at Emag length. lol.

    But in all seriousness, if going for an Electro, why not dump the antiquated and heavy Emag frame and go with something like the E90? Lighter, works just as well, and the body can still be non-Emag length. Heck, while at it, why not make it an EP mag with matching LPR foregrip?
    Emag length refers to a frame the length of a emag/uniframe style frame front to back. You have to start with more material, more machine time, etc.

    I do agree the emag frame platform is antiquated. Its just what I could get numbers for quickly and that everyone knows. So I used it as a example

  4. #34
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    I want to make this clear. I am NOT singling anyone out. Ive been bombarded over the last year or two with people asking for me to design & have parts made for them. Wanting short timelines. Then when I give them the numbers they tell me I'm nuts.

    Example:
    I have quotes for my M86's out of 10 shops I contacted (other then the one I use now) the lowest quote (Below) was $321 PER for quantity 25 & $ 223 PER for quantity 100. The high quotes where closer to $500 PER for the same quantities. You don't even want to know what a machined prototype would cost. WITHOUT polish, dust or anodizing.

    This is why I put up with the delays I have from my machinist. Because I can only have 2 of these 3 things, Good, Cheap, Fast. If I choose the wrong 2 then no one would by anything.

    Also there are things I could do to the M86's to make them cheaper to produce. Like removing the internal undercuts, Flaten the gear of the frame so it doesnt have to be 3d milled. no slots in the trigger guard just holes for what is needed.

    Yes I removed all the suppler info and most of mine. No one needs any of that.
    Last edited by cougar20th; 01-29-2015 at 09:49 AM. Reason: revised to note that the quote is without Anodizing.

  5. #35
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    Thanks for the info, Cougar. The lesson here might be "If you want a fully custom mag, build it your own damn self"

    Thankfully you, XMT, luke, and others have made it possible and easy to do that for those who want to.

    Quick question on body costs for you (and Big E mentioned something about this too): Why do mag unibodies seem to cost way more than cocker body/block kits? That looks like where the biggest difference lies. Are they just way harder to machine or something?

  6. #36
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    I ussually wouldnt posted the quotes. But now people see the issues with custom stuff.

    The internal milling difficulties with the automag probably equal out when you figure the second tube in a cocker. But a Mag Must have concentric internal. A cocker not so much. They can be off.

    There is currently alot of New Old stock cocker bodies out there that can be had at low prices to start with and have the material for milling. Which means they are already cheaper then if you milled from a block. Nothing is out there like that for Automags that I know of.

    Nemesis. All I can say about that one is the buyers got a screaming deal.

  7. #37
    Also. AGD is sold-out of RT on\offs. So that's it.

  8. #38
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    I have in my custom ripper mag excluding my x-valve (because I ended up with nothing in it) is 1055$ including a 2 color splash anno.
    I will have to add a little more for the shipping back once the anno is completed.
    Last edited by dodge3500; 01-29-2015 at 10:56 AM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by djinnform View Post
    Also. AGD is sold-out of RT on\offs. So that's it.
    Im sure there will be more. They can't build guns without them.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by djinnform View Post
    Also. AGD is sold-out of RT on\offs. So that's it.
    If I were a betting man I'd wager tuna has plenty.



  11. #41
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    Okay so the only way I'd see it happening here would be something like this:

    We combine AO's resources for it. Like, say, we pair mini verts from Luke, a body from XMT(I see he has several body pre-orders going right now - maybe a slight mod to an existing design like the shockwave - because unibody - to differentiate it for this project). CCM sells raw feednecks, Inception sells raw stella barrels - basically we'd need to get someone like XMT on board and then we'd need a project manager to handle the logistics and costing. Then each marker can be anodized to match. Basically be a complete marker less the valve. I dunno, just musing - but I'd bet for around the $800 mark we could do everything for an AO branded pnuemag (less valve).
    Last edited by SN toter; 01-29-2015 at 04:10 PM.

  12. #42
    I do love the idea and I support it 100% but FFS i can't afford a freaking xmag lol. they cost pretty much near a down payment for a new car.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by SN toter View Post
    Okay so the only way I'd see it happening here would be something like this:

    We combine AO's resources for it. Like, say, we pair mini verts from Luke, a body from XMT(I see he has several body pre-orders going right now - maybe a slight mod to an existing design like the shockwave - because unibody - to differentiate it for this project). CCM sells raw feednecks, Inception sells raw stella barrels - basically we'd need to get someone like XMT on board and then we'd need a project manager to handle the logistics and costing. Then each marker can be anodized to match. Basically be a complete marker less the valve. I dunno, just musing.
    Everything you listed is already available.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SN toter View Post
    Okay so the only way I'd see it happening here would be something like this:

    We combine AO's resources for it. Like, say, we pair mini verts from Luke, a body from XMT(I see he has several body pre-orders going right now - maybe a slight mod to an existing design like the shockwave - because unibody - to differentiate it for this project). CCM sells raw feednecks, Inception sells raw stella barrels - basically we'd need to get someone like XMT on board and then we'd need a project manager to handle the logistics and costing. Then each marker can be anodized to match. Basically be a complete marker less the valve. I dunno, just musing.
    And unfortunately here is where people start to say no. I never held or fired a Luke's minivert frame. I would not like to buy into it, with parts i do not know. Then you might get those people that like single trigger frames, for instance. I do not like CCM feednecks and offer adapters to use Empire Universal(or Axe pro) feednecks. And in reality, offering a barrel is a non starter, because i personally will already have one by May & even if i don't, i may prefer my own existing barrels just because of familiarity not need the bores chosen by majority.

    For a production run, you need to start at the top and work down. You need to have the project leader choosen first. Then he/she might look at the available resources and then either choose what the majority would want or just pick what would be used. I see no other way. You will always have people who won't be happy with it. You can't please everyone. Finding annodizers, getting machine shops on board are easy; getting 25 or so people to agree on a body, feedneck, frame and valve is near impossible.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    And unfortunately here is where people start to say no. I never held or fired a Luke's minivert frame. I would not like to buy into it, with parts i do not know. Then you might get those people that like single trigger frames, for instance. I do not like CCM feednecks and offer adapters to use Empire Universal(or Axe pro) feednecks. And in reality, offering a barrel is a non starter, because i personally will already have one by May & even if i don't, i may prefer my own existing barrels just because of familiarity not need the bores chosen by majority.

    For a production run, you need to start at the top and work down. You need to have the project leader choosen first. Then he/she might look at the available resources and then either choose what the majority would want or just pick what would be used. I see no other way. You will always have people who won't be happy with it. You can't please everyone. Finding annodizers, getting machine shops on board are easy; getting 25 or so people to agree on a body, feedneck, frame and valve is near impossible.
    Oh I agree, I was just brainstorming out loud.

  16. #46
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    Guys, bodies are my next big project. I have ideas of the route I want to go but nothing is set in stone until the chips start flying.
    I'm prototyping my current project right now, when it's done I will start the body project. I hope to start the design phase within about a month.
    I have a lot of concerns about the project and whether or not the support will be there when the time comes. People generally don't want something new, they want repeats of old parts, SFL, xmag or a emag, karta mag, aluminum minimag and RT bodies or the ripper style bodies, none of which is a direction I plan on going.

    Once I have my slug designs down (Not AGD slugs, I'm doing something different) there will be many possibilities. This will happen and much sooner than later.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Guys, bodies are my next big project. I have ideas of the route I want to go but nothing is set in stone until the chips start flying.
    I'm prototyping my current project right now, when it's done I will start the body project. I hope to start the design phase within about a month.
    I have a lot of concerns about the project and whether or not the support will be there when the time comes. People generally don't want something new, they want repeats of old parts, SFL, xmag or a emag, karta mag, aluminum minimag and RT bodies or the ripper style bodies, none of which is a direction I plan on going.

    Once I have my slug designs down (Not AGD slugs, I'm doing something different) there will be many possibilities. This will happen and much sooner than later.
    Well that is incredibly exciting! Just remember, Karta bodies were new once upon a time too. They are just an attractive design. If you make something really freakin cool, there will be demand

  18. #48
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    I missed this first thing this morning...
    You pretty much nailed this, most prices are pretty close. Some are a little high but some are a little low but the final number was all but exactly of what I was thinking.
    Not to mention #13 & 14 which most people don't consider.

    I would also add #15: Shipping.
    It sounds silly but most would be surprised how many hours it takes to pack and set up shipping labels 25 or 30 orders.

    Quote Originally Posted by cougar20th View Post
    Ok guys heres the break down as I see it.

    Rough numbers for a Emag
    1) Unibody, something with the complexity of a shockwave (Make) $400
    2) frame (Make, emag length) $300
    3) Valve (from AGD) $250
    4) Battery (from AGD) $89
    5) PCB (Reflex Customs) $200
    6) Trigger (Make) $45
    7) Grips (Make) $35
    8) Sear, Sear pin, Safety, selector, $55 +$7 +$7 +$15= $84
    9) Battery pack (Make) $50??
    10) Misc little things $20
    11) Barrel (Buy) $60
    12) feedneck $20??
    12)Ano (Plan Black) $100

    So a total of Approx $1600 before

    13) Assembly? time = Money. It took 3 guys several days to fully assembly & test the 30 Niche Nemesis cockers.
    14) Profit ?? No one works for free (Most of the time.)

    Now the prices on some may be less but these are roughly what Ive been told by several non paintball machine shops for a run 25-50. Of course more means a slight quantity price break.

    Now a Mech only Automag you could possibly drop about 5-600 off the cost.


    The thing to remember is when say AGD or any big company does a run of parts its usually hundreds of parts.
    I ask Tom about this, he said they generally ordered 1000 parts at a time. That put's stuff in perspective.

    And if they own thier machines they can internally charge less.
    That's not exactly true, but it does allow flexibly in many different areas that wouldn't necessary be possible otherwise. I won't go into details of all the ins and out's but the shop has to make a set wage just to pay for itself. Otherwise there would never be a profit before replacement of machines were necessary, not to mention the MANY consumables a shop goes through, it isn't cheap. There's a wage that a cnc machine HAS to make just to pay for itself before it dies, there's really no flexibility there unless you're only in it for the fun of it. It's much too expensive for me to do as a hobby.

    Just because you own the machines (shop) and are doing all the work, that does not automatically mean you will accept less. If I'm doing design work I expect to get paid design wages. If I'm programing I expect to be paid accordingly. If I'm running the machine, same difference, I want a fair wage for my time. The machines must earn their wage to pay for everything associated in keeping them up and running and paying for themselves.
    Last edited by luke; 01-29-2015 at 06:59 PM.

  19. #49
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    Sweet new stuff from Luke

  20. #50
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    Truth is a complete Luke's Customs marker has been in works for several years now, it just takes time. I've had to learn more than one trade from scratch just to get to this point, still lots to learn but a complete marker is now doable. I'm not setup to do barrels but there are plenty of choices already out there, not to mention most of us already have our favorites.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Truth is a complete Luke's Customs marker has been in works for several years now, it just takes time. I've had to learn more than one trade from scratch just to get to this point, still lots to learn but a complete marker is now doable. I'm not setup to do barrels but there are plenty of choices already out there, not to mention most of us already have our favorites.
    Well,I'm in
    Sounds like a plan.

  22. #52
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    Quantity is exactly the problem. Once the paintball community started fracturing on what they thought a paintball marker should be, it became impossible to run enough parts to make things economically. 1000 pcs is where you START to approach the better price for the product. Paintball is not big enough to pull those numbers any more as evidenced by what is happening to DYE.

    AGD

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    Quantity is exactly the problem. Once the paintball community started fracturing on what they thought a paintball marker should be, it became impossible to run enough parts to make things economically. 1000 pcs is where you START to approach the better price for the product. Paintball is not big enough to pull those numbers any more as evidenced by what is happening to DYE.

    AGD
    Thus spoketh The Lord...

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGD View Post
    Quantity is exactly the problem. Once the paintball community started fracturing on what they thought a paintball marker should be, it became impossible to run enough parts to make things economically. 1000 pcs is where you START to approach the better price for the product. Paintball is not big enough to pull those numbers any more as evidenced by what is happening to DYE.

    AGD
    Also the market is way different. The days of the $1000 marker as the big sellers are over.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
    Also the market is way different. The days of the $1000 marker as the big sellers are over.
    ? Huh?
    I see tons of 1000$ plus markers on the fields.I'll see as many new egos ,vanquish, dye and bob long as I do minis and tippmans.I must have misunderstood your comment do you mean the 1000$ gun as the lower end now?

  26. #56
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    I hardly see any new high end markers on the field anymore. Nobody around here buys brand new high ends anymore. The used market is going pretty strong with 2011 Ego's and Luxe's. I've also started seeing a ton of players dumping Empire Vanquishes like crazy as well.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post

    I would also add #15: Shipping.
    It sounds silly but most would be surprised how many hours it takes to pack and set up shipping labels 25 or 30 orders.
    That is a very good one. That and hardware are the things that I missed planning for on my first run of frames.

    On a semi related note, do you know how pissed people in line behind you get once they realize you have 30 packages to ship? One of these days I gotta do everything online.

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cougar20th View Post
    That is a very good one. That and hardware are the things that I missed planning for on my first run of frames.

    On a semi related note, do you know how pissed people in line behind you get once they realize you have 30 packages to ship? One of these days I gotta do everything online.
    Buying online is a ton easier your crazy not to.

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodge3500 View Post
    ? Huh?
    I see tons of 1000$ plus markers on the fields.I'll see as many new egos ,vanquish, dye and bob long as I do minis and tippmans.I must have misunderstood your comment do you mean the 1000$ gun as the lower end now?
    Are those people the original owners, or people that might have found it second hand or even have traded guns and maybe cash? Hell, i have a 99 Eclipse LED Angel, which was a $1500 gun, back in the day or even my Ego6. Does that count?

    But BigEvil's state is more that you will sell more $400 dollar guns than guns that cost 4 figures. Compare 10 years ago to today. Back then you had yearly gun releases, now their are spread out between the line of guns. Planet Eclipse, MacDev, even Empire.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_81 View Post
    I hardly see any new high end markers on the field anymore. Nobody around here buys brand new high ends anymore. The used market is going pretty strong with 2011 Ego's and Luxe's. I've also started seeing a ton of players dumping Empire Vanquishes like crazy as well.
    That is because the Vanquish is a rebadged SFT/NXT Shocker. It doesn't to my knowledge even shoot any better than them, especially in cold weather.

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