since the cockers guys getting some love maybe we can too?

[dodge3500]

Well with the twisters and sfl autocockers coming back from the grave how about a xmag release for us automag fans?maybe a Luke's mag?or a xmt mag?I'm talking a pre order completed and anodized mag.My ripper mag is out for anno and its been a fun but costly adventure that I don't plan on doing again any time soon but I sure would jump on a sweet release of a xmag or a emag,karta mag so on and so fourth.I mean if they can bring back shocktec sfl autocockers and bps twisters the old school market is there.I would definitely get on a pre order on a sweet arse mag.
What do you guys think?or am I rambling about something that's never gonna happen much less even possible?

[SummaryJudgement]

Well with the twisters and sfl autocockers coming back from the grave how about a xmag release for us automag fans?maybe a Luke's mag?or a xmt mag?I'm talking a pre order completed and anodized mag.My ripper mag is out for anno and its been a fun but costly adventure that I don't plan on doing again any time soon but I sure would jump on a sweet release of a xmag or a emag,karta mag so on and so fourth.I mean if they can bring back shocktec sfl autocockers and bps twisters the old school market is there.I would definitely get on a pre order on a sweet arse mag.
What do you guys think?or am I rambling about something that's never gonna happen much less even possible?

Where a are Twisters being listed/sold at?

[going_home]

Where a are Twisters being listed/sold at?

http://www.committedpaintball.com/

My google-fu is strong tonight.

[Nobody]

This will not happen. I truly wish to be wrong on this, but after some talks with a small shop this weekend, it all but confirms that the odds are that you will be struck by lightning, while getting bitten by a shark, while sinking a hole in one.

1) pre-order history. It plain sucks on AO. I can not blame anyone, but the history is the history. It will take the right product, at the right time to get that magical number to push this through.

2) 50lbs of cash. That is basically what it would take for someone to come up with a design, cad it up, run prototypes to check tolerances and code, buy raw material, take it to the machinists and get something working. That isn't even taking into consideration the small stuff like screws, the valves, the parts that make up the guns. Each person involved needa to be payed for their time and running their machines. Even if you have someone in that line able to do 2 jobs, it might lower some of the costs down, but still. Its not a cheap process in any way. For example, if the proposed gun is Emag based, is there enough noids? Can new noids be sourced? What about the sears? See what i mean...

3) clearity of project. What would you want? There are plenty of people that each would want an Xmag or an SFL, or something new; but who gets to decide? You need a head leader of the project to make the tough decissions, and majority rules does not work here.

4) where is the line drawn? Do people want a production gun or a base that people could customize? Or conversely, what parts would people consider keeping(angel detents, angel threaded feednecks) versus going totally new for just the sake of updating. This falls back to the project head...


I would love to see an Inception body or an updated Xmag or SFL, but its not going to happen. And i hate to crush people's dreams, but someone has to.

[cockerpunk]

This will not happen. I truly wish to be wrong on this, but after some talks with a small shop this weekend, it all but confirms that the odds are that you will be struck by lightning, while getting bitten by a shark, while sinking a hole in one.

1) pre-order history. It plain sucks on AO. I can not blame anyone, but the history is the history. It will take the right product, at the right time to get that magical number to push this through.

2) 50lbs of cash. That is basically what it would take for someone to come up with a design, cad it up, run prototypes to check tolerances and code, buy raw material, take it to the machinists and get something working. That isn't even taking into consideration the small stuff like screws, the valves, the parts that make up the guns. Each person involved needa to be payed for their time and running their machines. Even if you have someone in that line able to do 2 jobs, it might lower some of the costs down, but still. Its not a cheap process in any way. For example, if the proposed gun is Emag based, is there enough noids? Can new noids be sourced? What about the sears? See what i mean...

3) clearity of project. What would you want? There are plenty of people that each would want an Xmag or an SFL, or something new; but who gets to decide? You need a head leader of the project to make the tough decissions, and majority rules does not work here.

4) where is the line drawn? Do people want a production gun or a base that people could customize? Or conversely, what parts would people consider keeping(angel detents, angel threaded feednecks) versus going totally new for just the sake of updating. This falls back to the project head...


I would love to see an Inception body or an updated Xmag or SFL, but its not going to happen. And i hate to crush people's dreams, but someone has to.

it could happen if someone just wanted to do is a project and not make any money off it.

the issue is people's time is valuable. not just in terms of dollars, but family, friends, actually playing paintball etc etc. it has to be worthwhile for someone to take on the task, and that usually means $$$$. which, as pointed out, is really tight, and by no means guaranteed.

[Nobody]

it could happen if someone just wanted to do is a project and not make any money off it.

the issue is people's time is valuable. not just in terms of dollars, but family, friends, actually playing paintball etc etc. it has to be worthwhile for someone to take on the task, and that usually means $$$$. which, as pointed out, is really tight, and by no means guaranteed.

I would love for someone to prove me wrong and get this done. I know that even getting super small runs of certain ICD specific items costs an arm and a leg, and that was mostly from the people that had the cads. Starting fresh or relatively freah is an uphill battle. Whether or not it has been extensions of where the industry is going, hoseless guns for example, or just furthering what we already have, like new and improved rails and bodies.

[SummaryJudgement]

http://www.committedpaintball.com/

My google-fu is strong tonight.

Must be, I couldn't find that, just old posts on MCB and custom cockers.

I find it hilarious that the resurrection and Inception versions are priced what they are, and now these Twisters! "Closed-bolt accuracy" and "classic design" being thrown around left and right. A year ago the kiddies would have been calling cockers "old guns" or "outdated". Now mech cockers are going for $500-$1000, ha!

I was a cocker guy before I got into mags (of course this was 1997), and my collection is almost entirely mags and cockers. I think my Blazer, Viking, and B5 are the only non-mag/cocker markers I own.

I love it! Maybe mags will make an industry wide comeback as well 8D

Oh, and I have owned two Twisters and regret selling both of them...

[dodge3500]

Both sfl and twister sounding good so far for what is being offered but they ain't no mag

[going_home]

http://www.committedpaintball.com/Pr...ProductCode=F1

Anyone notice the release/unveil date lol ?

FULL MARKER UNVEIL - 2.22.2014


2014 Axe is about your best bet for a customizable marker right now, with all the bodies on wickedsports.com .

[dodge3500]

No way I'm building an axe now or ever unless they being the whole empire kee company stops buying American paintball company's and shipping them overseas. They really irritated me when they bought out a paintball manufacturer and shipped it to like twian or something like that.70 something American jobs were lost but I am pro USA made anyways.

[p8ntbal4me]

FYI, most production guns batches are fairly small ~1000-3000 even for the most popular high ends. also have to take into account modern "sponsorship" which means at lease several hundred of those guns are going at cost, or slightly above, rather than full retail.

Yeah I don't believe that for a minute.
A "sponsored" gun for a team is nothing more than a milling change, or some cosmetic add on piece.

SP shockers for teams
impulses for teams
DM3 for teams
Angel LCD for teams.....


The list is a very long and documented one. These little changed PE makes from gun to gun isn't a change they do SPECIFICALLY for a team and a team alone (in talking like... A hard core design change that makes the gun function like no other and it's parts are one of a kind and not usable but in that single one gun)

Take the stock angel LCD: all the adrenaline guns were milled down versions of the OEM. Nothing more. Or take those AGD/PTP Micro EMAGs for the Jacksonville boys..... The battery was the major change. The rest of the gun was an OEM package.

I have not seen a custom built gun made for a team yet that was so specific, any other OEM line gun parts wouldn't work with it.

You might be correct about the price of the gun toward the team from the manufacturer,....

FYI: someone mentioned the number of AGD EMAGs made: it's 1400
Have that saved in an email from TK

[cockerpunk]

Yeah I don't believe that for a minute.
A "sponsored" gun for a team is nothing more than a milling change, or some cosmetic add on piece.

SP shockers for teams
impulses for teams
DM3 for teams
Angel LCD for teams.....


The list is a very long and documented one. These little changed PE makes from gun to gun isn't a change they do SPECIFICALLY for a team and a team alone (in talking like... A hard core design change that makes the gun function like no other and it's parts are one of a kind and not usable but in that single one gun)

Take the stock angel LCD: all the adrenaline guns were milled down versions of the OEM. Nothing more. Or take those AGD/PTP Micro EMAGs for the Jacksonville boys..... The battery was the major change. The rest of the gun was an OEM package.

I have not seen a custom built gun made for a team yet that was so specific, any other OEM line gun parts wouldn't work with it.

You might be correct about the price of the gun toward the team from the manufacturer,....

FYI: someone mentioned the number of AGD EMAGs made: it's 1400
Have that saved in an email from TK

i don't think you understood my response.

my point was that modern sponsorship of teams is done as a discounted deal on merch. so teams that are sponsored can buy stuff from there sponsor at at a discount sure, but somewhere usually between cost and retail, and then turn around and sell it. this means that a fairly large number of that already small number of guns being made each design cycle, is being sold into the public at below retail prices.

this is leading reason why resale on guns drops so fast. because within minutes of someone getting there hands on it, they have to cash it out for there sponsorship, and so they sell at a discount.

so my point is, that no, someone did not have to buy it new at retail price for it to be out and about in the world. a large fraction, are not ever bought for retail price.

[p8ntbal4me]

I believe TK said that there were about a total of 1000 Emags in all, and only a few hundred Xmags.

"There are 1,400 or so E-Mags." - TK

THIS PART I WILL CHECK MY EMAILS FOR: "Of those, only so many were made into xmags"

[p8ntbal4me]

if your going into the gun making business, you should probably research the market a bit more.

take the hint, the Xmag, they made 1,400 of ... in the height of the paintball marketplace, and when folks didn't have problem dropping 1.5-2k on custom cockers and mags. and there wasn't a plethora of used guns at low prices, and mid level guns that are 99% as capable ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the high end market place looks like today in comparison.

I looking at this and how players today are spun up and sold on what the next big thing is from a manufacturer,... And I just don't see it.

Before you comment,... Let me put this out there so I make my view clear on my end: gun weight. Literally the number one seller of all "high end guns" (besides a ROF that no field with insurance will honor) is weight.
Since WDP,... They harped on the weight reduction of "this years model compared to last years". Or a version number. Look at what they measure it in now.... Grams. Friggen grams! Not one of you or any other paintball player can tell me the difference in a single unit of grams. NO ONE! Yet companies like PE spin this up as a massive weight reduction.

I will put the shoe on my foot:
I measure my red tail hawk in grams. Why? Because it's the most accurate.
I can not ever tell without weighing him, if he's light of heavy after 24 hours. No clue.... So I have to weigh him. His flight weight range is anything from 830-880. Anything around 930 and I risk the loss of him taking off.

I pick this bird up twice a day, and he's on my hand for 3 hours every day. I still can not tell.

My point: "high end" is what you the consumer say it is. But in reality, it's what I see carrying the heaviest price tag since WDP released the angel speed.

My thought is that the price tag of whatever gun you make,... Won't matter as much as the other stupid factors shoved out by PE and DYE now. If you make a 200gram AGD mag,.... They still won't buy it. Because the last thing that players are hung up on now is "brand whoring".

If it's not a PE semi or a CCM pump,.... It's just not the best.

Am I saying the guns aren't nice? No,... Of course not. Each comaint makes nice stuff for sure. But a consumer like me will never bend to drop $1000 more for a gun that I know can be out performed by a gun made 10 years ago. And this is where you decide the market (Luke and cocker punk): guys like me will not buy a $1600-2000 redesigned mag unless it has so much innovation into it,... That it's worth more than my mortgage payment. And the second group.... They will never buy a $1600-2000 because they have a pussy in place of their gun hand instead of growing a pair and dealing with a heavy gun that "always shoots straight".

Looking at the market trend for the last 15 years,.... That should be spot on.

*****. And no offence! I get what is trying to be done here,... And I love innovation. However my opinion from one small niche in this industry is: If your going main stream to compete with a market value compared to others on the marker,..... The marker must be on the level to compete.

Other wise,... Keep the run sub 50,... And do it in pieces.

[p8ntbal4me]

I could easily assemble more than 50 markers in a plethora of different configurations,

Assume I am not a machinist:

Would the variation from designs drive up the cost due to setup changes?

Anyone I have dealt with for shops has always said "less tooling changes, less setup changes, less cost"

Are you thinking of a more modular machine setup or something I have missed?

[luke]

Yes, all that is true and for more reasons than stated. But my comment was more directed to the inventory currently sitting on the shelves, all I need are bodies and I could easily build 50 markers (minus valves and barrels). I don't subcontract anything so it does allow me some convenience to offer what I do.

[p8ntbal4me]

Yes, all that is true and for more reasons than stated. But my comment was more directed to the inventory currently sitting on the shelves, all I need are bodies and I could easily build 50 markers (minus valves and barrels). I don't subcontract anything so it does allow me some convenience to offer what I do.

Gotcha

[djinnform]

After Luke builds us the perfect 18 year-old virgin, or one of us wins the lottery and produces the brand new mag, at a great price, the very first thing you will do it take it apart and eventually build 3 more mags out of the parts, and get them all re-annoed by Caustic Customs. So, it's the price of the original new mag + 3 mags + anno of 25 parts + plus waiting in line at the post office.

Look at the Empire Resurrection, it's only cool if you change-out all the parts with Inception bodies and old Eclipse frames. If you got your hands on one, it would start morphing immediately. You know it's true.

[Patron God of Pirates]

From the sounds of it Luke is planing on have a number of variations between all the different rails, lpr/grips, frames, he's already got in stock plus whatever body he comes up with.

[luke]

From the sounds of it Luke is planing on have a number of variations between all the different rails, lpr/grips, frames, he's already got in stock plus whatever body he comes up with.

Actually I have about 100 slug rails sitting on the shelf, so it's more likely the rails will be machined with the bodies. (New design(s))

[dodge3500]

Hey Luke about what part of this year do you think you will have time to start on a mag endeavor?
Thanks

[Xmagterror]

after luke builds us the perfect 18 year-old virgin

ahhaha!!! Lmfao

[going_home]

I think your biggest hurdle is getting 25 people lined up with money in hand for a prebuy.

No one would want to incur all the expense of buying parts and materials without most of the money up front.

And most informed AO members know the history of prebuys on this forum.

I waited what, almost 6 years for the Logic mag that finally showed up in pieces in a box.

Took Scott months to get it going.