since the cockers guys getting some love maybe we can too?

[cockerpunk]

Yeah I don't believe that for a minute.
A "sponsored" gun for a team is nothing more than a milling change, or some cosmetic add on piece.

SP shockers for teams
impulses for teams
DM3 for teams
Angel LCD for teams.....


The list is a very long and documented one. These little changed PE makes from gun to gun isn't a change they do SPECIFICALLY for a team and a team alone (in talking like... A hard core design change that makes the gun function like no other and it's parts are one of a kind and not usable but in that single one gun)

Take the stock angel LCD: all the adrenaline guns were milled down versions of the OEM. Nothing more. Or take those AGD/PTP Micro EMAGs for the Jacksonville boys..... The battery was the major change. The rest of the gun was an OEM package.

I have not seen a custom built gun made for a team yet that was so specific, any other OEM line gun parts wouldn't work with it.

You might be correct about the price of the gun toward the team from the manufacturer,....

FYI: someone mentioned the number of AGD EMAGs made: it's 1400
Have that saved in an email from TK

i don't think you understood my response.

my point was that modern sponsorship of teams is done as a discounted deal on merch. so teams that are sponsored can buy stuff from there sponsor at at a discount sure, but somewhere usually between cost and retail, and then turn around and sell it. this means that a fairly large number of that already small number of guns being made each design cycle, is being sold into the public at below retail prices.

this is leading reason why resale on guns drops so fast. because within minutes of someone getting there hands on it, they have to cash it out for there sponsorship, and so they sell at a discount.

so my point is, that no, someone did not have to buy it new at retail price for it to be out and about in the world. a large fraction, are not ever bought for retail price.

[luke]

most production guns batches are fairly small ~1000-3000 even for the most popular high ends.

Were exactly does this number come from?

[cockerpunk]

Were exactly does this number come from?

if i told you i'd have to kill you

[luke]

So you're just making it up...

[cockerpunk]

So you're just making it up...

if your going into the gun making business, you should probably research the market a bit more.

take the hint, the Xmag, they made 1,400 of ... in the height of the paintball marketplace, and when folks didn't have problem dropping 1.5-2k on custom cockers and mags. and there wasn't a plethora of used guns at low prices, and mid level guns that are 99% as capable ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the high end market place looks like today in comparison.

[OPBN]

if your going into the gun making business, you should probably research the market a bit more.

take the hint, the Xmag, they made 1,400 of ... in the height of the paintball marketplace, and when folks didn't have problem dropping 1.5-2k on custom cockers and mags. and there wasn't a plethora of used guns at low prices, and mid level guns that are 99% as capable ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the high end market place looks like today in comparison.

In other words... yes he's making it up.

[BigEvil]

I believe TK said that there were about a total of 1000 Emags in all, and only a few hundred Xmags.

[luke]

if your going into the gun making business, you should probably research the market a bit more.

take the hint, the Xmag, they made 1,400 of ... in the height of the paintball marketplace, and when folks didn't have problem dropping 1.5-2k on custom cockers and mags. and there wasn't a plethora of used guns at low prices, and mid level guns that are 99% as capable ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the high end market place looks like today in comparison.

I've been making parts for the AM community long enough to know exactly what to expect out of a project like this, but thank you for your wisdom.

[p8ntbal4me]

I believe TK said that there were about a total of 1000 Emags in all, and only a few hundred Xmags.

"There are 1,400 or so E-Mags." - TK

THIS PART I WILL CHECK MY EMAILS FOR: "Of those, only so many were made into xmags"

[p8ntbal4me]

if your going into the gun making business, you should probably research the market a bit more.

take the hint, the Xmag, they made 1,400 of ... in the height of the paintball marketplace, and when folks didn't have problem dropping 1.5-2k on custom cockers and mags. and there wasn't a plethora of used guns at low prices, and mid level guns that are 99% as capable ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the high end market place looks like today in comparison.

I looking at this and how players today are spun up and sold on what the next big thing is from a manufacturer,... And I just don't see it.

Before you comment,... Let me put this out there so I make my view clear on my end: gun weight. Literally the number one seller of all "high end guns" (besides a ROF that no field with insurance will honor) is weight.
Since WDP,... They harped on the weight reduction of "this years model compared to last years". Or a version number. Look at what they measure it in now.... Grams. Friggen grams! Not one of you or any other paintball player can tell me the difference in a single unit of grams. NO ONE! Yet companies like PE spin this up as a massive weight reduction.

I will put the shoe on my foot:
I measure my red tail hawk in grams. Why? Because it's the most accurate.
I can not ever tell without weighing him, if he's light of heavy after 24 hours. No clue.... So I have to weigh him. His flight weight range is anything from 830-880. Anything around 930 and I risk the loss of him taking off.

I pick this bird up twice a day, and he's on my hand for 3 hours every day. I still can not tell.

My point: "high end" is what you the consumer say it is. But in reality, it's what I see carrying the heaviest price tag since WDP released the angel speed.

My thought is that the price tag of whatever gun you make,... Won't matter as much as the other stupid factors shoved out by PE and DYE now. If you make a 200gram AGD mag,.... They still won't buy it. Because the last thing that players are hung up on now is "brand whoring".

If it's not a PE semi or a CCM pump,.... It's just not the best.

Am I saying the guns aren't nice? No,... Of course not. Each comaint makes nice stuff for sure. But a consumer like me will never bend to drop $1000 more for a gun that I know can be out performed by a gun made 10 years ago. And this is where you decide the market (Luke and cocker punk): guys like me will not buy a $1600-2000 redesigned mag unless it has so much innovation into it,... That it's worth more than my mortgage payment. And the second group.... They will never buy a $1600-2000 because they have a pussy in place of their gun hand instead of growing a pair and dealing with a heavy gun that "always shoots straight".

Looking at the market trend for the last 15 years,.... That should be spot on.

*****. And no offence! I get what is trying to be done here,... And I love innovation. However my opinion from one small niche in this industry is: If your going main stream to compete with a market value compared to others on the marker,..... The marker must be on the level to compete.

Other wise,... Keep the run sub 50,... And do it in pieces.

[Nobody]

if your going into the gun making business, you should probably research the market a bit more.

take the hint, the Xmag, they made 1,400 of ... in the height of the paintball marketplace, and when folks didn't have problem dropping 1.5-2k on custom cockers and mags. and there wasn't a plethora of used guns at low prices, and mid level guns that are 99% as capable ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the high end market place looks like today in comparison.

That may be true to the passing player who wants to try something new, try something different, to buy the flavor of the month cause its the cool gun and a status symbol to own the firsts of a certain gun. Now you have to literally snipe the market place, like what Niche did with the Nemesis cockers.

There is always money out there, its a matter of prying it away from the people with enough marketing, lead time and a good enough built product t9 make it happen. If there is a will then there is a way.

Yes, gone are the days of people having the disposable income. Yet, how many Kryptonite Axe bodies have been sold? How many FLE or Ripper bodies have been sold? Its not a matter having a product, its a matter of having the RIGHT PRODUCT at the RIGHT TIME.

[chi town saint]

By the way I don't know if someone posted this or not but there is no more runs of the sfl since 09. Unless I miss something and didn't see it posted anywhere.

[cougar20th]

Things definitely aren't like they used to be when I started playing when gun designs ran a 2-3 (or more) year production cycle before changing. Yea there may have been small tweaks.
Now guns change every year or atleast the big companies what to you believe that.
The old days there were companies supplying mostly parts. (KAPP, Taso, 32 Degrees) you dont see that anymore due to the guns changing far to quickly to make it worth investing the time & money onto making parts. There are of course some exceptions.

Maybe Im just showing my age but I do long for things to be the way they used to be. But I know that will never happen. Paintball is and always will be evolving as a business.
I think that is why many here are drawn to automags & autocockers. They are modular. You can change them. You can modify them, You can work on them. They typically dont have electronics (some do).

But Mags and cockers are a very niche market to be making parts for. Its really easy to saturate the market with parts as there isn't a huge market base to sell to. You also need to come up with innovative and interesting parts of the highest quality. The good thing is with good communication, good track record both the automag community and the autococker community can be patient. Without good communication they will lynch you as faster then you can imagine.

[ScottyBeans]

But Mags and cockers are a very niche market to be making parts for. Its really easy to saturate the market with parts as there isn't a huge market base to sell to.

So you are saying.....we need to convince more rec ballers to go out there and play with their cockers and mags?

Hell, I'm in for that

[captian pinky]

So you are saying.....we need to convince more rec ballers to go out there and play with their cockers and mags?

Hell, I'm in for that

we are doing exactly that for a small charity event that is local. mech and pump only hopperball game. once the details are ironed out ill be posting on the event section.

[zondo]

But Mags and cockers are a very niche market to be making parts for. Its really easy to saturate the market with parts as there isn't a huge market base to sell to. You also need to come up with innovative and interesting parts of the highest quality. The good thing is with good communication, good track record both the automag community and the autococker community can be patient. Without good communication they will lynch you as faster then you can imagine.

I see what you did there...

[Dayspring]

So...

Now that I've cleaned out the internet toughguy act stuff, we can get this thread back on track.


Doug & Gordon - I don't care who starts it, I don't care if it's in "self defense" or part of "vigorous debate", if a thread gets off track like this AGAIN (much like the last couple times) BOTH of you get a temp ban. You are now your brother's keepers.

If it steps over the line of civility again, both of you go.

[Nobody]

So...

Now that I've cleaned out the internet toughguy act stuff, we can get this thread back on track.


Doug & Gordon - I don't care who starts it, I don't care if it's in "self defense" or part of "vigorous debate", if a thread gets off track like this AGAIN (much like the last couple times) BOTH of you get a temp ban. You are now your brother's keepers.

If it steps over the line of civility again, both of you go.

You're no fun anymore.



Take your pick...

[Dayspring]

You're no fun anymore.



Take your pick...

Somebody's gotta keep the peace between you two knuckleheads.

[BigEvil]

Somebody's gotta keep the peace between you two knuckleheads.

Sometimes it's best to let people fight it out and see who the last one is standing.

[luke]

Especially if it ends in a fist fight!

[cockerpunk]

So...

Now that I've cleaned out the internet toughguy act stuff, we can get this thread back on track.


Doug & Gordon - I don't care who starts it, I don't care if it's in "self defense" or part of "vigorous debate", if a thread gets off track like this AGAIN (much like the last couple times) BOTH of you get a temp ban. You are now your brother's keepers.

If it steps over the line of civility again, both of you go.

as we have discussed, i have never stepped over the line of civility in any of these conversations, and never will. i cannot be blamed for someone else's posts, i can only control my own. which, even according to your own messages with me, have never crossed that line. attempting to blame us both equally in convenient, sure, but totally false. nothing i have posted that lead to nobody, or anyone else's reactions train wrecking a thread, was any more than common sense or common understanding of basic paintball design.

i cannot be blamed for someone insulting me because they do not understand the basics of what they are arguing about.

also, as a simple act of courtesy, i would prefer you do not delete threads/posts containing our arguments. they provide simply the best reference material for future arguments with these folks, and frankly, allow nobody to claim different things about the past than what actually happened, in order to further troll. as he did and i had to correct him multiple times in this exact thread, such as when he claimed i burst in late in the thread with a totally new topic ... no, i didn't. and i'd prefer if you allowed the record to be publicly available, so that i can quickly and easily disprove his claims.

[Dayspring]

as we have discussed, i have never stepped over the line of civility in any of these conversations, and never will. i cannot be blamed for someone else's posts, i can only control my own. which, even according to your own messages with me, have never crossed that line. attempting to blame us both equally in convenient, sure, but totally false. nothing i have posted that lead to nobody, or anyone else's reactions train wrecking a thread, was any more than common sense or common understanding of basic paintball design.

i cannot be blamed for someone insulting me because they do not understand the basics of what they are arguing about.

also, as a simple act of courtesy, i would prefer you do not delete threads/posts containing our arguments. they provide simply the best reference material for future arguments with these folks, and frankly, allow nobody to claim different things about the past than what actually happened, in order to further troll. as he did and i had to correct him multiple times in this exact thread, such as when he claimed i burst in late in the thread with a totally new topic ... no, i didn't. and i'd prefer if you allowed the record to be publicly available, so that i can quickly and easily disprove his claims.

You've got the terms - either of you step out of line in a thread together, you both get a vacation. Maybe then the two of you can figure out how to coexist.

And no - I will not keep bickering and childish arguing in a thread. You guys want to hash stuff out, do it privately.

The whole "he's an idiot, no he is" and "I'm just defending myself" stuff isn't going to fly anymore.

[cockerpunk]

You've got the terms - either of you step out of line in a thread together, you both get a vacation. Maybe then the two of you can figure out how to coexist.

And no - I will not keep bickering and childish arguing in a thread. You guys want to hash stuff out, do it privately.

The whole "he's an idiot, no he is" and "I'm just defending myself" stuff isn't going to fly anymore.

again, i cannot be held responsible for someone else's actions.

[OPBN]

Ever notice a common denominator in most of the threads that go wildly off course?

[BigEvil]

ever notice a common denominator in most of the threads that go wildly off course?

^
qft

[cockerpunk]

Ever notice a common denominator in most of the threads that go wildly off course?

this is why we need to not delete argument posts.

yes, i do. me saying something common sense, and then someone else freaking out about it. your thread was a perfect example. this one as well. and don't claim it was me, you were the one swearing and making a fuss at me, not the other way around.

[OPBN]

It has more to do with your insulting demeanor. We are not a bunch of ignorant noobs that need you to come save the day with your knowledge. You consistently talk down to people and insinuate that our viewpoints are either irrelevant or stupid and it gets old. You did some stupid barrel test a decade ago and it doesn't make you an expert on anything. Learn to just walk away if you don't have anything germane to add to the subject.

Let me say this clearly " Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them wrong or their opinions any less relevant". Knock it off and you won't get into pissing matches in every thread you come into.

[Dayspring]

again, i cannot be held responsible for someone else's actions.

Watch - cuz that's exactly what's going to happen.

Maybe BOTH of you will stop and think before typing something out if the end result of that post is just inane bickering.

[cockerpunk]

It has more to do with your insulting demeanor. We are not a bunch of ignorant noobs that need you to come save the day with your knowledge. You consistently talk down to people and insinuate that our viewpoints are either irrelevant or stupid and it gets old. You did some stupid barrel test a decade ago and it doesn't make you an expert on anything. Learn to just walk away if you don't have anything germane to add to the subject.

sending this response in PM because dayspring will ban me for your response to it.