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Thread: Different style of pump handle?

  1. #1
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    Different style of pump handle?

    I was thinking of the possibility of trying to get someone to mill a different style of pump handle. Instead of one in front of the pump plate, pushing back on the pump arm, what about having one where the pump handle mounts around the plate and uses the rail as a guide and pulls back on the plate? Probably look at getting it done in Delrin.

    My paint skills blow, but I can try to draw something if needed.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    I think i know where you are going. I thought about it myself. I never really came up with anything I liked. On top of that it shortens the reach significantly and causes a lot of clearence issues. You could build something similar to the slide kits made for the phantom.

  3. #3
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    A pump handle like what's on the Nellies just popped into my head. You could take advantage of a stock rail's dovetail mounts on the sides, providing more stability and less binding. You'd have to move the pump rod attachment point farther to the nose of the handle, but that's just drilling a hole. I think it'd shorten the overall length by a fair bit. The trouble is, that while you'd be able to do away with the entire pump post, you'd be losing the return spring, and have to pump it all the way, both ways.

    Edit: Alternatively, if it's moved that far back, you could possibly use the front of the rail as a spring base to push against.

  4. #4
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    I'll try to draw what I'm thinking about in a bit. Think about the Rainman kit, but with the pump handle removed. Just the plate. Now put a handle on it that fits on the outside of that plate.

  5. #5
    Cyco-Dude Guest
    so...no horizontal pump handle, but a vertical one instead? i think i need a visual reference, haha!

    i would like to see something outside of the box too. i'm thinking duckslide or something like that would look cool. it would certainly be unique for a pump-mag, at least.

  6. #6
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    Still would be horizontal. Duckslide would be close probably.

  7. #7
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    Duckslide looks like it covers the entire body of the gun though. That seems like a neat look with a BUNCH of dead weight.

    When you described it above in terms of the Rainman plate, I started thinking about a sort of 200° donut that would wrap around the edge of the plate. That would actually be really easy to draw up and 3D print. Using another pump kit (Cerberus), you could just redesign the pump handle so most of the mass and the hand-hold spot are further back.

    If you're thinking more like a shortened duck, you may still have to lengthen the pump rod to get enough back-forward clearance so you don't jam the pump handle into the trigger guard every time you pump it. Still might be prototype-able with 3D printing.

    Overall though, I'm not sure there's much mechanical advantage to doing this, aside maybe from the little bind you can get on a Rainman kit of your pump stroke includes some downward pressure rather than straight back. The other kits don't seem to have this issue (at least not mine).

  8. #8
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    I was thinking more of the concept of the pump handle being on the outside of the marker and using the body as a "guide". Kind of like a half pipe.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
    I was thinking more of the concept of the pump handle being on the outside of the marker and using the body as a "guide". Kind of like a half pipe.
    shoot me a pm of a sketch I may be able to design one for you.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-cuzz View Post
    A pump handle like what's on the Nellies just popped into my head. You could take advantage of a stock rail's dovetail mounts on the sides, providing more stability and less binding. You'd have to move the pump rod attachment point farther to the nose of the handle, but that's just drilling a hole. I think it'd shorten the overall length by a fair bit. The trouble is, that while you'd be able to do away with the entire pump post, you'd be losing the return spring, and have to pump it all the way, both ways.

    Edit: Alternatively, if it's moved that far back, you could possibly use the front of the rail as a spring base to push against.

    A nelly brown pump with a back bottle adapter would work pretty well I think. It would probably want to roll upward when pumping, which you may or may not like.

    An AGD adapter with a drop out changer would look a lot like this I think, just a little lower in the back. Hmm, I do have a new stick feed I stuck together recently.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    A nelly brown pump with a back bottle adapter would work pretty well I think. It would probably want to roll upward when pumping, which you may or may not like.

    An AGD adapter with a drop out changer would look a lot like this I think, just a little lower in the back. Hmm, I do have a new stick feed I stuck together recently.
    That's pretty much what I had pictured in my head! I think it'd be pretty slick without any visible linkages, squared off, and with a .45 frame.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    A nelly brown pump with a back bottle adapter would work pretty well I think. It would probably want to roll upward when pumping, which you may or may not like.

    An AGD adapter with a drop out changer would look a lot like this I think, just a little lower in the back. Hmm, I do have a new stick feed I stuck together recently.
    could print or have something like this made with a printed force bearing, to prevent the rolling up as you are referring too.

  13. #13
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    I've been pondering on the type of mouning for the pump rod. For a printed handle, a bushing insert would be easy, but it would be nice to have something that has a little play or adjustment available. I wonder if a little, stiff spring at the pump rod base would add some cushion and comfort to the end of stroke. It might make a brass rod last longer.

    Nellie-mag? Nelly-mag?

    Needs a forward stroke limit. *** We could use the VASA bolt hole for a bushing/bearing and limit.
    Last edited by Spider-TW; 01-30-2015 at 10:04 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by knownothingmags View Post
    could print or have something like this made with a printed force bearing, to prevent the rolling up as you are referring too.
    I doubt it would be much with a pump mag anyway, but some little V rollers to fit in the rail grooves would probably be nice.

  15. #15
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    The front end of the rail and pump handle could be drilled and threaded for... well... basically what the post on the factory kits does now, but something a little more creative for a stopper would be nice.
    I'm not sure it'd be better, but a set screw into the side of the rail fit into a corresponding slot on the pump handle would do the job, and you'd only need a small hole through the leg(s) of the handle to get to it. The rest of the slot would be nicely hidden under the handle.

    Unfortunately, both of these involve drilling and tapping the rail.

  16. #16
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    I have a warp feed modified RT-pro rail that needs a pump handle like this. Unfortunately, it's a whole different mounting problem even though it should be easier.

  17. #17
    an over lap like this?

    so it uses the rail to guide?



    of course I can change a lot. just a basic mock up
    Last edited by knownothingmags; 02-01-2015 at 07:59 PM.

  18. #18
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    That last one is what I was thinking of for the inside. I think we will have to have a guide that bolts on to the rail still (at the asa hole), that has the forward stop. I can't think of a way to get rid of it so far.

    Excellent start.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    That last one is what I was thinking of for the inside. I think we will have to have a guide that bolts on to the rail still (at the asa hole), that has the forward stop. I can't think of a way to get rid of it so far.

    Excellent start.
    surly can be designed however need be. I have the profile tight. so it can be loosened,
    im ready when you are.

  20. #20
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    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still like the set screw idea, and I've tweaked it a little.

    Thread the screw through the bottom of the rail to where it sticks out, I dunno, 1/8"? Cut a slot for it into the handle, and stop the slot where you want the handle to stop. Forward stop accomplished.

    On the other hand, if you were to use the asa hole (I cracked up typing that), keep the contour of the handle itself, and bolt a piece of cut-off handle there for the stop, and a return spring could even be mounted inside of that. It could still be nearly flush with the front of the rail, and look just like the handle.

    asa hole

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-cuzz View Post
    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still like the set screw idea, and I've tweaked it a little.

    Thread the screw through the bottom of the rail to where it sticks out, I dunno, 1/8"? Cut a slot for it into the handle, and stop the slot where you want the handle to stop. Forward stop accomplished.

    On the other hand, if you were to use the asa hole (I cracked up typing that), keep the contour of the handle itself, and bolt a piece of cut-off handle there for the stop, and a return spring could even be mounted inside of that. It could still be nearly flush with the front of the rail, and look just like the handle.

    asa hole
    Yeah. It has to be a pump milled rail anyway. A small threaded hole near the front could be covered over by the traditional ASA if you took the pump off.

    How about a standard allen cap screw? Make the slot fit the head. A #8-32 should be easy. ***Meh, you're right. A set screw would leave more room to strengthen the back end of the handle-slot to take the abuse. A pan head in the front of the rail would make a lip right at the edge of the rail, and be slightly adjustable...............

    Do you make it so that it uses the bent-end AGD pump rod, or a threaded one? And would it be the same length?

    How much rail overlap length at rest? There's not a lot of room before getting over the trigger and under the feed on the back stroke.

  22. #22
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    It'd be easier to use the AGD rods. The specs are out there, and the profile to the body would be smaller than a threaded one (I think?), but it all depends on what style you want to go with. On the other hand, a threaded rod would give ya some adjustment....

    The overlap leads to one of the lovable things about Mags. The Sheridans had a slot cut into the back end of their pump handles to clear the trigger frame, and the same could be done for this, as long as it doesn't weaken the stopper area. There's nothing on the bottom of the rail to mess with it otherwise.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-cuzz View Post
    It'd be easier to use the AGD rods. The specs are out there, and the profile to the body would be smaller than a threaded one (I think?), but it all depends on what style you want to go with. On the other hand, a threaded rod would give ya some adjustment....

    The overlap leads to one of the lovable things about Mags. The Sheridans had a slot cut into the back end of their pump handles to clear the trigger frame, and the same could be done for this, as long as it doesn't weaken the stopper area. There's nothing on the bottom of the rail to mess with it otherwise.

    Yeah, I think we are talking about a finger that extends down the rail a bit, and ends up over the trigger and under the feed some amount. If we can set some limits, KNM can put anything and everything on the outside.

    Just need to set up a small return spring.

  24. #24
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    Oops, yeah, I kinda had a brainfart there. Carry on!

  25. #25
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    I keep forgetting to dig my son's pump mag out to look at his spring.

    I'm thinking 1 1/2" total length, 1/2" of guided cup in the handle front. That would be a 3/16" or so dia. hole with a post printed in it to capture the spring. I just need to find a common spring so that it will all fit loosely. The stroke will have to be a little less than 3/4" if we put the screw at the tip of the rail because I think there is only an inch or so to the trigger guard, which limits the little bit of pump material that will catch the screw. I'm still thinking cap screw on the end, so that it can be drilled and tapped a little bit away from the edge.

    It looks like we can overhang the trigger by about an inch when the pump is pulled in. I think it would look good to have the lower radius on that cut match the curve of the inside of the trigger guard.

    KNM, do you have the dimensions of the stock AGD pump rod slot in the handle?

  26. #26
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    If you need to borrow a spring, let me know. I put a heavier one into my kit, so the original is in the parts bin till I need it. If I remember right, it's about 1-1/2" long.

    I like the idea of a radius matching the trigger ring, it looks good in my head.

    If you need it, I may still have the slot dimensions printed off back when they were on haveblue's site.

  27. #27
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    How about a phantom return spring?

    OD is 0.25", 0.028/7 wire, 10 turns per inch, 2 inches long. It could be trimmed. $2 each.

    Hole in the handle would be 1/2" deep by 5/16" ID, with a post of 5/32"

    ?

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