A Different Way to Play Limited / Unlimited Paint Tournaments

[AGD]

Guys,

Laying in bed last night this idea came to me so I am coming to you for feedback. Limited paint has always been a bad idea because most guys don't like it and the promoters want to sell paint to make a profit. But what about this idea, your team can go into a game with any amount of paint it likes, no restriction. HOWEVER, each of your kills is worth so many points discounted by some formula for the amount of paint you started with. This would mean a pump team with 50 rounds each could theoretically take out one guy and score as many (or more) points than the other team winning with a full paint load.

This would lead to some interesting strategies because if your team was down on points, you might make the strategic move to switch to low volume pumps or similar. Highly aggressive full paint teams could not just go "stab" a guy behind the bunker because if they were taken out simultaneously it would give the other team a boat load of points. It would make the games last longer and require more strategy than just force on force. I would be interested myself in seeing such lopsided firepower games where everything is on the table.

Discuss.....

AGD

[going_home]

The most fun I've had playing was hopper ball, limiting paint to one hopper.

Makes you pick your shots instead of just spraying.

I tried pump and just couldn't get into that style of play.

[Patron God of Pirates]

I played a similar scenario before. Rather than use a formula, we just had to "buy" pods of paint using our teams points. I thought it was a great idea but the implementation was a little wonky. One kills was worth enough to buy one pod. With re-spawns and 20 a side, both teams quickly had enough points to where pod cost was not an issue. It never ended up being lopsided.

Coming up with a formula that works and prevents a dominant strategy from taking hold would take allot of play testing.

[boo]

The most fun part of paintball is getting eliminations. I think people would just forgo points just to spray the field and get eliminations.

[Patron God of Pirates]

I think it was being asked with tournaments in mind. Sure in walk-on play people care more about their own success, but if the objective is to win a tournament then the focus is points, not kills.

[athomas]

If I was ahead on points and knowing the other team had to come at me, I would switch to a low volume of paint, just knowing that I am going to maximize my elimination points when the other team is forced to be aggressive. If the other team also comes out with a low volume of paint, the game will equalize, and it will be more of a standard paint limited game, except its voluntary.

It would be advantageous for any team to calculate exactly how much paint they think they will actually use in the game and only carry that much. Any extra above the amount needed could cost you elimination points. I think you would see teams changing from dumping paint, to a more calculated shooting technique to maximize their scoring by figuring out how to use less paint. It would be an interesting game change and would add another level of complexity that would have to be accounted for. The promoters would probably notice a drop in paint useage at these events, so I don't know if local tournaments would go for it.

[BigEvil]

Very interesting. I would imagine that something like that would make things very difficult to judge though..

[zulubravo44]

Very interesting. I would imagine that something like that would make things very difficult to judge though..

I feel like it might need some sort of extra equipment to get going... A sort of paint distributer that counted each ball "withdrawn" by each team in order to get an objective count.

But then eliminations could be judged the same way, and a really simple calculator/app could be used to tally total points per match.

Seems like a cool idea to me. I always thought the arms/money race to have the most paint in the air for a solid ten minutes was a huge turnoff to tournament style play. This could, with proper testing and calibration, be an interesting way to equalize. You could even have different formulas for different levels of play if necessary.

This also could lead to a sort of team handicapping system that might (I say might because it's a long shot) allow for less well equipped teams to compete with more well equipped teams more on the basis of actual skill rather than just the amount of money spent on ramping electros and cases of paint. That said, I don't think think it'd be really feasible to somehow come up with a system that was actually fun for everyone where a team of all pumps could take on a fully loaded speedball team. One side or the other would be pissed off about the result, and the two styles are too far from one another to bridge the gap with math.

[skipdogg]

Not crazy about the idea, but totally geeked that Tom is thinking about paintball again when he goes to bed! Made my week start off great!

[going_home]

Very interesting. I would imagine that something like that would make things very difficult to judge though..

Just have to have a loader with a counter on it that that officials could reset.

[cockerpunk]

more overhead i don't think is necessarily a good idea. X ball already requires more infrastructure than most fields have, and that causes problems. that being said i think most players do have a few different setups in the gear bag so maybe it is a wash. I have a hard time buying that this doesn't, depending on the point shift slope as it relates to firepower, turn into either the current hose-fest, or just pump only. or just folks with electros 1 balling (which is fine too).

paintball already hits them where it counts in terms of reducing firepower, and thats in the wallet. its unpopular but the solution to the hose-fest should become clear given that fact.

[SeeK]

I think it was being asked with tournaments in mind. Sure in walk-on play people care more about their own success, but if the objective is to win a tournament then the focus is points, not kills.

Scenario games have a similar strategy. Kills (shots) don't count but objective points do.

The problem is that the game/tournament/scenario designers don't do any modeling to try out the game balance for the various point awarded for objectives. As everybody has probably seen, some smaller objectives may be 1 point but larger ones might be 5 points. But the larger objective isn't necessarily 5 times harder to achieve.

It's like playing the line in Craps. Some numbers are harder to hit and so they pay out more.

If we had someone that is good with Stats programs like SAS, SPSS, or R or a finance person to build a Monte Carlo simulator, we would run the different strategies for 6 iterations.

Team A B
1 - Unlimited Unlimited
2 - hopper pump
3 - unlimited pump
4 - hopper Unlimited
5 -
6 -

Then assign the proposed point system to each matchup to see how teams would gain points. More importantly you would see the boundary limits (ie. could all pump play gain enough points to defeat unlimited?)

[snoopay700]

I think I remember people putting forth a similar idea before, where the total amount you bring onto the field is how score is based, or the total amount fired, which would make more sense to me. Personally it sounds like a cool idea, and I'd be down for it.

I'm not convinced it would change anything definitively, but it would be interesting to see the dynamics of this sort of tournament play. Like most things, there would likely be patterns that emerge and that people just follow, but until that point is ultimately reached i think it would be a fun time and interesting to see the combinations people come up with for their teams.

I feel like there should be some sort of objective, even if that is just total elimination. That nets you a certain amount of points on top of each elimination and follows a similar formula. It could lead to instances where one team loses the match in terms of number of eliminations, but they win on points. I feel like that would cause a ton of controversy though.

[going_home]

You guys have probably seen this new format, NSL :

http://www.nationalspeedballleague.com/videos.php

[luke]

Interesting idea, keep it simple just weigh the paint of each player as they come off the field. No need for fancy counters, each player dumps his left over paint in a bowel after the game, it wouldn't take long to process both teams after a game in a tournament situation.

Weighing paint for a count is the simplest solution in lieu of counting, that's they way I did it when I was renting markers and selling paint in the early 90's...

[BigEvil]

The players can also be required to get their paint as they walk on the field. We used to do limited paint pump speedball games and that's what we did.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Weight seems like it would be the easiest method. You can weigh the whole pod pack on the way on the field and then again after the game. The only change would be paint used. This would also allow players to bring a larger volume of paint without necessarily using it. It would allow for more dynamic strategy in game.

Getting fields to buy into any format that discourages paint sales is going to be a challenge.

[cledford]

I think it is a great idea! I can say this, I'm getting back into paintball after a 10 year hiatus *only* due to the emergence of low volume (mag fed) paintball guns. I was fed up with the volume of paint being slung per elimination when I left. The cost, the BPS arms race, the over shooting, etc - I was done. I don't think I would have come back for pump, but found the mag fed thing to be irresistible. Since coming back I'm enjoying picking back up my purely mechanical guns (mainly a good ol automag with AIR valve and L10) as well. I also pulled the trusty Emag out this past weekend but right now, really don't want to get back into the shoot fast thing. But I digress...

Regarding the question, I love the idea. It really levels the playing field and makes older markers (lower volume) and players viable again :-)

Calvin

[cledford]

...Totally geeked that Tom is thinking about paintball again when he goes to bed! Made my week start off great!

I totally agree!

-Calvin

[zondo]

Getting fields to buy into any format that discourages paint sales is going to be a challenge.

Offset with entry fee?

[going_home]

It really levels the playing field and makes older markers (lower volume) and players viable again :-)
Calvin

But if everyone starts using their old markers and stops buying the latest greatest electronic banana what will Bob Long, Planet Eclipse, Macdev, Smart Parts etc do ?

[athomas]

I don't think that counting the shots you take is the way to go. The fact that you carry the extra paint is different than limiting how much you have at your disposal. You only need to count the paint entering the field for each team, by means of weight, pod size, etc. Now that team is given a multiplier based on total paint carried onto the field. The team would already know the multiplier anyway, so they would have calculated how much paint they need for their play style to get that multiplier. It is up to the team to determine how it is divided up among the players. That is part of the strategy as well. It would be fairly simple to implement like this. Each team would have to be given the other teams values and a bit of time to digest them, because they would affect the overall strategy of the game as well.

[Spider-TW]

But if everyone starts using their old markers and stops buying the latest greatest electronic banana what will Bob Long, Planet Eclipse, Macdev, Smart Parts etc do ?

While I would play such a system for fun, I'm thinking this would mainly be for sponsored and promoted league play. If so, where markers aren't sponsored, you have plenty of hard core players that MUST HAZ the "latest and greatest", regardless of functionality. It may help the mix of markers some, but I think serious players will simply learn to play different strategies (low volume) with their high end markers. That would be enough of a challenge. If you are playing for money with lots of spare equipment, open bolt with detents, eyes, and a rotor still works with 10 paintballs.

You could probably create different brackets just by changing the scoring algorithm.

***

As long as we are accounting for paint, you could add "live paint" and "dead paint". Dead paint is paint carried off the field by eliminated players, live paint is carried off by live players.

[athomas]

As long as we are accounting for paint, you could add "live paint" and "dead paint". Dead paint is paint carried off the field by eliminated players, live paint is carried off by live players.

That'll just change how it is carried. Now, we carry it on our back in harnesses. If you add it to the mix of scoring, then you carry it in a portable device of some sort. That way, if you get shot, your paint stays on the field for your teammates. For limited paint tournaments, or tournaments that use paint volume as a multiplier, maybe that'll be part of the strategy anyway.

[boo]

I've always thought going back to 10 round tubes would be an interesting way to play. Maybe put some tape over the mouth of a hopper or put a specific lid so you could only dump a tube at a time. You could add dead paint with respawn, and a field could put out 10 round tubes with free paint at strategic locations to encourage more movement.

Even playing a traditional tournament with 10 round tubes starting with 0 paint in the marker would be awesome. The pump guys would be off playing deep into the other teams territory before a backfield player got their ego throwing backfield volumes of paint. It would be a good way to mix all types of styles and markers. Plus it would get all the big guys to get a line of accessories.

You'd begin to see marker styles develop around field position. What better way to sell more markers then players wanting to own both offensive and defensive markers.

[athomas]

Even playing a traditional tournament with 10 round tubes starting with 0 paint in the marker would be awesome. The pump guys would be off playing deep into the other teams territory before a backfield player got their ego throwing backfield volumes of paint. It would be a good way to mix all types of styles and markers. Plus it would get all the big guys to get a line of accessories.

I could arrange a tube cluster that would dump 100 rounds at a time into a hopper. It would essentially make it like a 100 round pod, thus rendering the tube just slightly slower than a large pod.

Even the smaller mouth opening could be manipulated with a loading mechanism that would load 10 round pods quite quickly.

[boo]

Yeah, but that's pretty easy to regulate. Hand loaded 10 round tubes, simple as that. Sure, you could grab a handful, but you'd still be loading them one at a time. Think of it like a NASCAR restrictor plate on a dye rotor. Replace a speed feed with a 10 round tube feed. And if you don't wanna get the accessory just use duct tape or gaffer tape to create an opening the size of a 10 round tube. It's simple, easy to regulate, and doesn't exclude any equipment except pods and pod packs.
Fields still get to sell overpriced paint and tubes. Best of all the field gets to collect the old tubes left on the field and resell them.
Think about it, if your burning daylight at a field paint only facility. Would you load a case into 200 round tubes or would you pay a few bucks more to purchase a case already preloaded?

[athomas]

Yeah, but that's pretty easy to regulate. Hand loaded 10 round tubes, simple as that. Sure, you could grab a handful, but you'd still be loading them one at a time.

No, like I mentioned in my second line, a smaller mouth opening like a 10 round tube size, could easily be manipulated into a quick feed that could dump 100 rounds into a loader really fast. I grew up with 10 round tubes. The first hopper I had was a 200 round hopper with a 10 round feed tube opening, because pods hadn't been invented yet. We found ways to load faster. With todays techology and the want for higher shot count, feed size restrictions will just cause inventors to find another method to deliver it.

Managing equipment has been proven throughout the years, to not be a deterent to dumping paint. Users find ways to manipulate the equipment to bypass any restrictions. So let them, within the rules of safety, use any type of equipment, including hoppers and loaders. Limiting paint allows the use of whatever technology you want. It just means you have to manage it better as a team, so it takes the responsibility off the governing body and puts it onto the user. Now we have to find a way to limit paint. Do we do it purely by volume, or do we do it by a point system based on the volume carried into a game? This only applies to tournament situations. For regular outings its not a problem anyway. If it is, you can easily limit the physical amount carried onto the field for regular outings.

[boo]

No, like I mentioned in my second line, a smaller mouth opening like a 10 round tube size, could easily be manipulated into a quick feed that could dump 100 rounds into a loader really fast. I grew up with 10 round tubes. The first hopper I had was a 200 round hopper with a 10 round feed tube opening, because pods hadn't been invented yet. We found ways to load faster. With todays techology and the want for higher shot count, feed size restrictions will just cause inventors to find another method to deliver it .

You can also wipe in paintball, run a cheatmode on a board, crank up your velocity, and even with limited paint you can hide paint. There is a certain amount of honor expected in paintball, as in any sport. Sure, people can cheat, but you hope they wont.
There would be no way around one 10 round tube at a time without blatantly cheating. A ref would see a loading tool, a bigger opening, a funnel vs a hole, and someone loading more then a tube at a time.
The tournament sponsors would be providing the paint in 10 round tubes since no one would have time to load a bunch of tubes between rounds. Some type of modified tube wouldn't even be of an advantage.
Tournaments are filmed so it would be even more obvious there. The other good thing with that format is you don't have to worry about less obvious methods of cheating like cheater boards. People could run uncapped full auto or run a response trigger and it wouldn't be of any benefit.

[GoatBoy]

You should be allowed to carry as much paint as you want, and be free to use the latest and greatest equipment that you or your sponsors can afford...








... But for every extra 150 rounds you bring onto the field, you should be required to carry an extra "accessory".

I'm talking gas station bathroom key style.



And accessory hits count!

First 150 rounds fly free.

Second 150 - Cowbell
Third 150 - Hubcap
Fourth 150 - Carafe of coffee, and no coffee may be spilled, although it can be consumed in game

etc.

Incidentally, this also helps fix the slight problem of tournament paintball being absolutely boring to watch.