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Thread: Vertical feed / PF question?

  1. #1
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    Vertical feed / PF question?

    OK. We all grasp why the pf design was used back in the 90s. And why vert is so much better today. But I've been thinking a lot lately. Or at least the last few times I've played. When using a FF hopper. In my case a rotor. Does that added geometry angles the ball is being pushed down cause any potential issues?
    First im using a classic original automagRT.

    I find when I play with my old revolution that I chop a ball or 2 when I outshoot the hopper. Kinda a given. Otherwise no issues at all.

    Now when using a rotor all bets are off with firing speed. But I feel like the geometry involved and the FF on the ball may cause inharrent drag in the feed speed that I wouldn't otherwise have with a vertical feed body? If this makes any sense? And thus cause hickupps at times sorta like outshooting a gravity fed hopper yet not exactly?

  2. #2
    Cyco-Dude Guest
    it's a non-issue as far as i'm concerned. i've got plenty of reactive set-ups with powerfeed bodies that can do 20 bps (more than i'd ever use on the field) and use a spire. works just fine! so unless you are actually having issues, i wouldn't worry about it.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
    it's a non-issue as far as i'm concerned. i've got plenty of reactive set-ups with powerfeed bodies that can do 20 bps (more than i'd ever use on the field) and use a spire. works just fine! so unless you are actually having issues, i wouldn't worry about it.
    The. "And thus cause hiccups at times". Would be the issues. Hard to explain.

    I do own a few parabolic PF plugs. Then I've got the old original plug. I personally can't tell a difference in them in terms of performance.

  4. #4
    Cyco-Dude Guest
    well, considering the gun you are using i'd say you have no real option for a vertical feed, unless you want to track down one of those limited-run vert-feed ule rt classic bodies (sorry, i forget the name of the dude that made them...brain fart!).

    get a level 10 bolt if you're getting chops, or just shoot slower lol. if 20 bps is causing issues, try tuning it down to 12 bps and see. a 12 bps rope will work just as well as a 20 bps rope!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
    well, considering the gun you are using i'd say you have no real option for a vertical feed, unless you want to track down one of those limited-run vert-feed ule rt classic bodies (sorry, i forget the name of the dude that made them...brain fart!).

    get a level 10 bolt if you're getting chops, or just shoot slower lol. if 20 bps is causing issues, try tuning it down to 12 bps and see. a 12 bps rope will work just as well as a 20 bps rope!
    I guarantee I've never ran 20bps. Ha-ha. I'm not that hot fingered. I do use a shp reg. But its set at 900-950. I'd venture to say I've never shot over 10bps
    XMT is who made the bodies BTW. Only reason I don't own one is I refused to give up my TL barrel.

    And it's not really chops. Idk. Not sure how to explain. Hence why I asked the more generalized question. And then it could all be in my head.

    As for the lack of swapping parts due to this in particular marker. That's nothing my machine shop can't fix.

  6. #6
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    i have had an occasional double feed using that Z2 i traded you for on my RT but it usually involves the level 10 kicking back and a second ball dropping in front of the bolt while the first is held in the nubbin.

  7. #7
    Cyco-Dude Guest
    hmm...maybe post a video if that's possible? does it actually shoot a blank every now and then? 10 bps is no issue for a rotor in good working condition. perhaps try using a different loader and see how it goes?

  8. #8
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    Ha-ha. I actually dont have a L10 in this marker. My wifes RT has one. And my prototype rt ive been working on has one. But my trusty old classic RT does not. Double feeding is a whole different issue all together. And then the double feeding you speak of is yet another kind of double feed all together. I learned real quick with FF and a nubbin there is a fine line on getting proper function without balls getting pushed in the breach. My halo2 was always bad about pushing balls past the nubbin. I soved that issue for the most part by building up the back side of the nubbin some which makes it protrude a tad more and be a little more rigid in the breach. And actually if time permits tonight I'm gonna mill a second nubbin slot.

    Hmmmmmmmm. How to really explain where my question comes from..... AND! You actually did give me something to think about. And it may still be a nubbin issue. I wonder if on occasion the FF is pushing a ball in somewhat past the nubbin. But not totally past. So not a double feed persay. But enough it is causing a hiccup of sorts. Whereas I keep thinking it would be in the transition at the pf plug. It may still be at the nubbin.

    This new paint is a lot smaller in consistant OD than the paint I used back in the 90s.

    Maybe I need to suck it up and try a new age ule body with ball detents and a cocker barrel.... Eh! The blasphemy....
    Last edited by blackdeath1k; 11-27-2015 at 04:49 PM.

  9. #9
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    I am pretty sure TK tested this and found the powerfeed to be just as fast if not faster than vertical feed...so it is a non-issue.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman View Post
    I am pretty sure TK tested this and found the powerfeed to be just as fast if not faster than vertical feed...so it is a non-issue.
    I think you are correct. But was that before or after today's standard of FF hoppers?
    And That's why I said above that it could still be a nubbin issue. Vintage reminded me of the issues I ran in to converting over to FF hoppers back 3 or 4 years ago when I started playing again. Maybe I've got rid of most of said issue. But not all of it. As the one stray pigmy ball could still be causing a slight ball detent issue. Just not enough of one for a blatent chop or double feed. It's really hard to trail down an anomaly when one can't even figure out how to explain it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackdeath1k View Post
    I think you are correct. But was that before or after today's standard of FF hoppers?
    And That's why I said above that it could still be a nubbin issue. Vintage reminded me of the issues I ran in to converting over to FF hoppers back 3 or 4 years ago when I started playing again. Maybe I've got rid of most of said issue. But not all of it. As the one stray pigmy ball could still be causing a slight ball detent issue. Just not enough of one for a blatent chop or double feed. It's really hard to trail down an anomaly when one can't even figure out how to explain it.
    You are correct in that there are so many variables to contend with. Try to find a reliable combo and stick with it.
    Last edited by Tunaman; 11-27-2015 at 09:17 PM.

  12. #12
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    A few things from my experience.
    1. I've used old style plugs, parabolic plugs, and even a straight angled Spyder plug in a pinch. They all perform the same IF the bottom side of the plug is inboard of the weld joint on the powerfeed. It's this spot that causes hiccups with force feed hoppers. This is my experience with about 5 or 6 different powerfeed bodies over the years.
    2. I've seen HALOs slightly push powerfeed plugs out of the tube, which then leads back to my first item. When I finally realized what was happening, I simply pulled up the oring that covers the weld gap to the outside of the plug. It looks goofy, but it worked.
    3. Concerning your small paint comment, I recently posted about detent issues with my X-Mag. Thought I had that figured out in the other thread, but even smaller paint was double feeding last time I used it. Finally had to just thread lock a detent in without an oring. That got the detent in far enough to to stop the double feeding with the .667 paint, and the thread lock was needed since there was no oring to keep it from vibrating out.

    Forgot to mention that, other than the parabolic plugs, the others frequently need filing/sanding of the face that contacts the feed tube to allow it to sit in far enough to prevent what I described in number 1 above. It's way easier just to buy the parabolic plugs from Tuna, but I did the filing as proof of concept when I was trying to figure it out.
    Last edited by nak81783; 11-28-2015 at 07:54 AM. Reason: Added filing/sanding comment.
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    who in the heck is makin 667 paint ?

  14. #14
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    Valken. I've bore-mic'ed my inserts, and they're spot on as marked. The paint was rolling right through my .670. Checked a few at home, and they averaged .667.

  15. #15
    Cyco-Dude Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Valken. I've bore-mic'ed my inserts, and they're spot on as marked. The paint was rolling right through my .670. Checked a few at home, and they averaged .667.
    none of the valken i've shot this year or last measured anywhere close to that, and i've shot all sorts of valken paint. you must have some old or bad batches...that's not typical.

  16. #16
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    I know. I've made this comment a few times throughout this playing season, and every time someone responds as you did. Perhaps it's specific to the field chain I play at the majority of the time. Of the three other places I played this season, two use Empire (which was absolute garbage - inconsistent size, dimples, oblong) and one uses Valken (don't recall the grade or how it sized).

  17. #17
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    So far I love all the valken I've used. Allbeit a tad smaller than paint from years past. Overall no complaints at all. That in no way means that some fields may not buy seconds. Or any other variation of lesser grade paint from same manufacturer.
    Last edited by blackdeath1k; 11-28-2015 at 04:17 PM.

  18. #18
    Cyco-Dude Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    I know. I've made this comment a few times throughout this playing season, and every time someone responds as you did. Perhaps it's specific to the field chain I play at the majority of the time. Of the three other places I played this season, two use Empire (which was absolute garbage - inconsistent size, dimples, oblong) and one uses Valken (don't recall the grade or how it sized).
    ugh, don't get me started on empire. stuff is "marballizer" and "evil" in name only...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
    ugh, don't get me started on empire. stuff is "marballizer" and "evil" in name only...
    where is the like button?

  20. #20
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    Actually vert feed sucks for force fed loaders. Your slowly seeing manufacturers get away from them with offset feednecks.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j9WJoWtjAeA
    PE did these slow mo vids and on top of learning from them how to make better bolts they also learned that vertical feednecks caused a lot more bounce in the chamber from force fed loaders.
    https://planeteclipse.com/site/econs
    I'm wondering if this is also why warpfeeds are sidefeed, on top of the positioning of the feeder.

    I'm actually surprised straight vert feed are still an industry standard when everyone uses force fed loaders. They are a holdover from agitated loaders.

    In theory, set up right, a powerfeed should be better then vert feed unless other factors are at play.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackdeath1k View Post
    OK. We all grasp why the pf design was used back in the 90s. And why vert is so much better today. But I've been thinking a lot lately. Or at least the last few times I've played. When using a FF hopper. In my case a rotor. Does that added geometry angles the ball is being pushed down cause any potential issues?
    First im using a classic original automagRT.

    I find when I play with my old revolution that I chop a ball or 2 when I outshoot the hopper. Kinda a given. Otherwise no issues at all.

    Now when using a rotor all bets are off with firing speed. But I feel like the geometry involved and the FF on the ball may cause inharrent drag in the feed speed that I wouldn't otherwise have with a vertical feed body? If this makes any sense? And thus cause hickupps at times sorta like outshooting a gravity fed hopper yet not exactly?
    Last edited by boo; 11-29-2015 at 01:25 AM.

  21. #21
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    Boo. I would suspect nak is on to something with his #2 observation with the ff hopper pushing the plug enough to be an issue but not stand out as noticeable during play. Due to this. I plan on putting a retainer on my plug next time I play and see if any noticeable unconsistant feeding takes place.

    As for pf or vertical feed. Personally I'm 100% content with my classic old marker as long as there are no issues. And this is the final issue that I'm finding at all. As the rest we're fixed with a 100% go thru on the valve. And modifying the nubbins.

  22. #22
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    I've always been able to get 15 bps from powerfeeds once the Automag powerfeed plug issue was resolved and a detent issue was resolved with an electronic-framed Spyder. I've also had much better luck with reflective eyes (E2 Autococker and X-Mag) than breakbeam (Nerve and Axe Pro). This is with a Halo; never saw the need to upgrade. I run semi, single finger, so I'm only set at/pulling 8-12bps depending on field/league rules and/or what the competition is doing (e.g., 8bps when playing against rentals). So, although the PE modifications seem logical to improve performance, I don't know where they would be needed. That said, i would take a Mustang over a Focus, in a race of the latter, so I understand the allure.

  23. #23
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    are you using your RT barrel Jason?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by vintage View Post
    are you using your RT barrel Jason?
    RT barrel? As in the OEM? No. I've got a 12" dye ultralite I've used forever.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by boo View Post
    Actually vert feed sucks for force fed loaders. Your slowly seeing manufacturers get away from them with offset feednecks.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j9WJoWtjAeA
    PE did these slow mo vids and on top of learning from them how to make better bolts they also learned that vertical feednecks caused a lot more bounce in the chamber from force fed loaders.
    https://planeteclipse.com/site/econs
    I'm wondering if this is also why warpfeeds are sidefeed, on top of the positioning of the feeder.

    I'm actually surprised straight vert feed are still an industry standard when everyone uses force fed loaders. They are a holdover from agitated loaders.

    In theory, set up right, a powerfeed should be better then vert feed unless other factors are at play.
    Thanks for the vids! And everyone stating vert feed is a holdover from agitating days is correct in my opinion. Remember when Angels started having freakishly tall feednecks to have a ball-stack? That's because they were out shooting the Revys of the day. Side-fed warp styles and warped PFs have always worked fairly well. And Power Feeds or even just angled feednecks fought the blow-back (gas into feednecks) issues the blow-forwards/open-bolts suffered back when Tippmanns and Spyders were the norm and mags and cockers were the only real "high end" markers you'd see at a field.

    Just my two cents
    Last edited by SummaryJudgement; 11-29-2015 at 12:00 PM. Reason: Sausage finger spelling....

  26. #26
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    Vertical feed being remnant from agitated hopper days seems reasonable, but given the existing bps caps, is there need for change? My guess is you'll have players complaining about the .250" or whatever offset from a symmetric marker. "Aw, man! I got hit on my hopper on the offset side. If only this thing were a vertical feed!"

  27. #27
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    People will always find something to complain about.

    I really don't remember vert feed being a standard until after FF came out. Everything pre 2000 that was mainstream was standard side feed or PF. But reguardless it used an elbow. Feed stacks were high to add weight and ball count to avoid chopping balls.

    Reguardless. As far as I'm concerned. Long as my marker is shooting consistent I'm perfectly happy with my pf setup. And I would really suspect nak is on to something with the pf plug shifting in its space.

  28. #28
    Cyco-Dude Guest
    i dunno, those o-rings hold them in pretty good. i seriously doubt any force-feed loader is going to move it.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
    i dunno, those o-rings hold them in pretty good. i seriously doubt any force-feed loader is going to move it.
    My halo2 pushed it out multiple times. So it stands to reason that the rotor could push it enough to be an issue. Yet not real noticeable without focusing on the plug.

  30. #30
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    When I've seen it happen, it's less than .100" but enough to expose the weld joint.

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