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Thread: Introducing The Deflator

  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    The classification only has two purposes: either it's a marketing gimmick that yields no effective value ("OMG IT'S UNIBODY!"), or it's there to clearly describe a break in compatibility. I.e. there are things about this product which might break typical expectations of part compatibility.
    Yea, it's neither here or there, time will tell how people describe the design.

    I'm not saying the break in compatibility is necessarily a bad thing, just speaking more to people getting a little too caught up in naming this and classification that and failing to see the forest for the trees.
    Yea perhaps I do get a little caught in naming or classifying parts mainly because when people ask about different parts I make (family or friends mainly) sometimes it's difficult to explain. Like for instance the T-Rex what the hell is it? Well it's a "pneumatic paintball gun firing doohickey" lol, as far as I know there is not technical pneumatic term that would really describe it. Yea it's a poppet type, 3 way air valve, normally closed, but its actually more than that.

    The rail thing is a neat idea. I can see that if you wanted, you could adjust the bias in the sear pin to be, say, slightly up or down, which is a tuning feature I've kind of wanted as well.
    I found this specification all over the place on various Mags which I found curious. I was surprised that it would work so far out of spec, but they do. (So far out of spec is retaliative)

    directly parallel to the feed
    That's actually an illusion.

    I've found there are... a few potential dangers to having a direct-acting (that's my name for one that is directly parallel to the feed) detent. Might depend on a few variables.
    You put that very delicately. (lol) I actually thought I would have to defend that right out of the gate, I figured it would be the very first comment. It's the primary reason I didn't release the details until I knew it was a solid design. I didn't want the "common sense view" of the design to impend the R&D and put a negative spin on the project.

    Actually the detent can not be depressed by the balls being feed into the breach as one would expect (i.e. common sense view). You have to consider the geometry involved, the breach is basically a 3/4" sphere , as are all Automags. We all know that paintballs are in the neighborhood of a .70" spherical diameter. The reason that is important is the bottom center point of the paintball (sphere) that touches the bottom of the breach is very small piece of real estate. In addition the detent is basically a ramp, low end at the ball high end leading into the "barrel portion" of the breach away from the paintball. In short the detent is actually located outside the breach perimeters. You can actually put a paintball in the breach, tilt the marker forward and it will not depress the detent. Really there is no way a ball can get on top of the detent because for all intents and purpose the detent is in the barrel.

    Not sure if that makes sense(?)

  2. #332
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    Im wondering why you didnt go with Tippmann detents?

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
    Im wondering why you didnt go with Tippmann detents?
    I dont really know anything about Tippmann except that newbies tend to gravitate to them. lol. Kidding aside dont they use a little rubber plug of some sort(?)

    More direct to your question, I wanted to put my effort into manufacturing everything myself and not using other vendors parts. I could probably make molds and do something similar but this detent should last forever and you wont be shooting it out the end of your barrel. If the spring ever wears out a replacement can be easily found. It's an 1/8" diameter spring that is very common and comes in a wide variety of strengths, anywhere from less that a 1/4 lb up to and over 25lbs.

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    The sear is a standard AGD sear with a bushing and no modifications. The body is designed to AGD operational specifications I just did it differently.
    Sorry I meant detent
    The user formally known as Lancecst.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLachance75 View Post
    Sorry I meant detent
    The detent is proprietary to this body, designed and manufactured in house. There was some concern early on to it being proprietary but really this should last a life time. I can make spares available at a reasonable price for anyone concerned but I'm not exiting the AM market anytime soon I'm just now getting started.

    The spring and detent axle is a common off the shelf part.

  6. #336
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    Lol... Nothing lasts forever. More people have to eat those words than you can count. Isn't there a set of steak knives that claim that they will be the last ones you ever need?

  7. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by zulubravo44 View Post
    Speaking of ano, are there enough people interested in getting this done in satin black that we could try to work some kind of group deal with an anodizer, and just have luke's send them straight to ano and then to us?
    That would be doable if we can sell enough parts.

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by going_home View Post
    Sort of similar to the Axe slightly, and its gas transfer plate.
    What is that and how does it work? Links?

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    What is that and how does it work? Links?
    Similar meaning it has the gas transfer plate (#38) between the grip frame and body.

    http://www.piranha-evil.com/AXE%20BLOW%20UP.jpg


    Simon disassembling his creation :


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX33VL55Uac

  10. #340
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    Simon is a genius, I was happy for him when he finally went out on his own so he could reap the rewards of his own creations.

    Thanks for the links I was always curious about the Axe.

  11. #341
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    You should think about coming to Tunaball next year, he and Tuna are always there.

    They both usually play too.

    I hear they are trying to get TK to come again next year too.

    They should be working on Dave Zupan too, he's never been.



  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    That would be doable if we can sell enough parts.
    Count me in.......


    Walker
    O.F.P.P.A. - OLD FARTS PAINTBALL PLAYERS ASSOCIATION
    When you wrap-up the day with beer and Bengay.

  13. #343
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    I'll put this out there to get everyone's feedback on, I've mostly made up my mind but I'll listen to your opinions.

    On the stainless steel spring cup I added two set screws in the body to hold it in place but after testing I noticed that it just worked free and left gouges and scratches on the outside of the cup. Really the only purpose for the set screws is so when you remove the valve assembly you dont have to keep track of the cup. From previous other tests I've discovered the the spring is much more abusive than I originally thought so it working loose wasn't a huge surprise. My opinion is that I should just leave the set screws out of the design and let the cup float inside the counterbore. I kind of dont care for how the set screws push the cup to one side anyway, that may or may not be a problem but I get nit picky about that stuff. lol. I've explored other options but I have no other options right now, either do to limitations for tooling or vendor supply's.

    What do you guys think, would you be OK without the set screws?

  14. #344
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    I'd be Ok without them.......


    Walker

  15. #345
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    Do a small channel around (if possible) the cup where the set screw tips locate?

  16. #346
    I'm so pumped that you are following through with this that I'm seriously tempted to buy one just to support you. Stylistically it's not usually the type of thing I go for, but it's been growing on me. Looks like I'm going to get a chance to see the prototype in person so maybe I come around... Either way, good luck, keep it up, glad you're out there.

  17. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patron God of Pirates View Post
    I'm so pumped that you are following through with this that I'm seriously tempted to buy one just to support you. Stylistically it's not usually the type of thing I go for, but it's been growing on me. Looks like I'm going to get a chance to see the prototype in person so maybe I come around... Either way, good luck, keep it up, glad you're out there.
    By the time you see Brian's prototype body, the special pricing promo will be closed and production will probably be done. If I dont sell enough to even hit stage two of the pricing structure, the chance of any extras being made will be slim. With two sales on the books and 1 prototype sold these becoming a stock item even in small quantities does not look likely at this point. This project was never about the Deflator design specifically so as of right now no more than 4 might be made (#4 would be for me) I am making slugs to have on hand but with my back log of projects I'm not sure how soon I can revisit and design another body. It will happen but no idea when with this operation being a one one band. Not to mention I've spent 7 straight months on this and am quite sick of bodies at this point.

  18. #348
    I get it. If this were disposable income season I would be on that list. My business goes into survival mode June->September.

  19. #349
    So, since it's not a unibody how about a "Rail-Less Automag Body"?

  20. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertreed711 View Post
    So, since it's not a unibody how about a "Rail-Less Automag Body"?
    It kind of has a rail.

  21. #351
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    Few pictures and a little info.

    First picture shows the air line routing beside detent, it's held in place by the front grip frame screw boss.



    This is the low pressure airline routing around the sear and into the grip frame. Routing keeps line clear of the sear. This is the same milling and location as the routing in my rails for the OLTR.



    This just shows the fitment of the detent inside the body.



    The body comes with a new front grip frame screw. This picture shows how the front screw and detent line up horizontally. If the screw is too long as shown in the picture the detent will get eaten up by the bolt. I got in a habit of checking the detent with an allen wrench through the breach to make sure I had installed the correct screw.



    The correct length screw will look like this, hidden from view of course. Before I machine the new carriers I'll recheck the design to see if I can make this a blind hole so a longer screw can't be used. This is V8 or V9 and previous designs wouldn't work with a blind hole, this one might because it has the shortest operational radius than earlier designs. Final version will be optimized if possible.


  22. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    It kind of has a rail.
    Maybe but not in the traditional sense but I guess you could call it a "Hidden Rail Automag Body" or an "Incorporated Rail Automag Body" or maybe a "Combo-Body".

  23. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    You put that very delicately. (lol) I actually thought I would have to defend that right out of the gate, I figured it would be the very first comment. It's the primary reason I didn't release the details until I knew it was a solid design. I didn't want the "common sense view" of the design to impend the R&D and put a negative spin on the project.

    Actually the detent can not be depressed by the balls being feed into the breach as one would expect (i.e. common sense view). You have to consider the geometry involved, the breach is basically a 3/4" sphere , as are all Automags. We all know that paintballs are in the neighborhood of a .70" spherical diameter. The reason that is important is the bottom center point of the paintball (sphere) that touches the bottom of the breach is very small piece of real estate. In addition the detent is basically a ramp, low end at the ball high end leading into the "barrel portion" of the breach away from the paintball. In short the detent is actually located outside the breach perimeters. You can actually put a paintball in the breach, tilt the marker forward and it will not depress the detent. Really there is no way a ball can get on top of the detent because for all intents and purpose the detent is in the barrel.

    Not sure if that makes sense(?)
    Yeah, I know there are a lot of little variables and implementation details involved in this, that's why I didn't really say anything. I've done my own testing with this orientation of detent, and I can make it work, and I can make it not work heh.

    In some ways, the "other detent" in the system is the ball stack itself. If the chambered ball rolls back ever so slightly, then the next ball lands forward on top, the next ball of the stack is a detent. Too much of this effect leads to breakage, but just a little and the paint is its own detent.

    I think the ultimate design is a detent which makes contact with the *bolt* first, not the paint. The bolt is pushing both the paint and the detent, so all the energy and force comes from the same place. The difference is the energy acting on the detent doesn't need to go through the paint to get there. It's dangerous to make analogies in paintball forums, but it's like ramming your car into your garage door do get it open. You kind of prefer the door to open on its own...

    So basically a detent which is kind of a cupped double-ramp -- the front ramp is the detent, and the back ramp is what the bolt strikes first to lower the detent. I think you could actually almost implement this in your design.
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  24. #354
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    The machine vapor used a detent like that but it was part of the eye pipe probably no good for a mag as you might get interference

  25. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    I think the ultimate design is a detent which makes contact with the *bolt* first, not the paint.
    I put some thought into this early on and ultimately decided that it was over complicating the design and function, but I do get where your coming from. I also didnt want to machine that large of an opening in the breach area.
    The bolt is pushing both the paint and the detent, so all the energy and force comes from the same place. The difference is the energy acting on the detent doesn't need to go through the paint to get there. It's dangerous to make analogies in paintball forums, but it's like ramming your car into your garage door do get it open. You kind of prefer the door to open on its own...

    So basically a detent which is kind of a cupped double-ramp -- the front ramp is the detent, and the back ramp is what the bolt strikes first to lower the detent. I think you could actually almost implement this in your design.
    I really think that the force applied to the paintball with the detent is minimal and does no harm. Paint is fairly pliable so I don't really see it as a problem. I designed and tested more than 10 versions before settling in on the final design. Keeping solutions simple generally works best for me.

  26. #356
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    Understanding the desire for a hidden detent, Here is a thought, instead of reinventing the wheel here why not just tap the bottom of the body (in the hidden area for an Angel threaded detent, like just about every other mag body. . . . .
    ......You know you want one!!

  27. #357
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    Tippman use a under mount detent and that's been used for years no problem
    You should have zero issues with lukes design

  28. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loguzzzzzz View Post
    Understanding the desire for a hidden detent, Here is a thought, instead of reinventing the wheel here why not just tap the bottom of the body (in the hidden area for an Angel threaded detent, like just about every other mag body. . . . .
    That was the very first consideration but wasn't pursued for a quite a few reasons. But ultimately size, location and manufacturing was the deterrent. Also designing a rebuild-able Angel detent would have been more work than going this route. Also, I think this is a superior design to the ball style detents.
    Last edited by luke; 06-29-2016 at 11:01 AM.

  29. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by renie View Post
    Tippman use a under mount detent and that's been used for years no problem
    You should have zero issues with lukes design
    Good point.

    Also, in reality the mechanics of this detent is not a new idea. I really don't know Tippman at all but PTP uses this style detent with great success. Plus, I've always thought this was the best style of detent on the market.
    Last edited by luke; 06-29-2016 at 11:10 AM.

  30. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by renie View Post
    Tippman use a under mount detent and that's been used for years no problem
    You should have zero issues with lukes design
    While that is very true, the bolt designs are 2 different things and the speeds at which they work are way different. Granted i am not familiar with the modern day Tippmans, more with family owned guns than the corporation.

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