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Thread: Introducing The Deflator

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    That was the very first consideration but wasn't pursued for a quite a few reasons. But ultimately size, location and manufacturing was the deterrent. Also designing a rebuild-able Angel detent would have been more work than going this route. Also, I think this is a superior design to the ball style detents.
    My only reason here was to keep from having to make and stock special parts. PTP has done that with a few things and now try and find a sear pin for their bodies. There are rebuild-able Angel threaded detents already made but hey this is your party I was just offering my $0.02 for simplicity sake.

    After being an Engineer for over 35 years I believe in K.I.S.S
    ......You know you want one!!

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Loguzzzzzz View Post
    My only reason here was to keep from having to make and stock special parts. PTP has done that with a few things and now try and find a sear pin for their bodies. There are rebuild-able Angel threaded detents already made but hey this is your party I was just offering my $0.02 for simplicity sake.

    After being an Engineer for over 35 years I believe in K.I.S.S
    Things have changed over 35 years.

    From what I can tell, the shape of this detent isn't really that complicated. A replacement part could easily be 3d printed in a pinch.

    I tried to reuse the Tippmann detent myself, but found it wasn't quite shaped right. I think their shape is more geared toward their crappy monkey-metal based production process.

    Angel detents are problematic to say the least. You know why rebulidable Angel threaded detents are so readily available?

    Because so many of them need to be "rebuilt".
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    Things have changed over 35 years.. . . . . .
    You're right, I used to draw on velum with ink, tape a drawing to a board and use a "T" square and a few triangles, now I use a computer and a mouse, not sure of your point but mine was to keep things as simple as possible and use parts that are readily available when ever possible. I've never really had any problems with Angel detents in any of my mags but I am sure others have. I've never even "rebuilt" one, never had to. . . .

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loguzzzzzz View Post
    There are rebuild-able Angel threaded detents already made but hey this is your party
    Bottom line is there's not room for an Angel detent on this platform. It's one of those ideas that is quickly shot down by the mathematics in the equation.

    My only reason here was to keep from having to make and stock special parts. PTP has done that with a few things and now try and find a sear pin for their bodies.
    Actually my goal is to manufacture everything in house and not use other vendors parts. The more I make or use off the shelf parts just lowers the cost of the final build for customers. The beauty is that these bodies will still accept a standard detent.

    After being an Engineer for over 35 years I believe in K.I.S.S
    Every point of view is retaliative to ones perspective, from my point of view this is the simplest approach to a hidden detent that I can manufacture in house.

    I was just offering my $0.02 for simplicity sake.
    I take no offense to your question. But you also know from an engineering point of view that brain storming ideas don't always pan out once you do the CAD work. Actually my ideas almost never pan out exactly as first envisioned. Automags have a working geometry that can't be changed and in general form follows function and in this case it also follows existing operational geometry that must be designed around. It's a reasonable assumption to think that using the Angel detent would be a good route, problem is it just doesn't work.

  5. #365
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    Not to be interpreted as sniveling (lol) but the Automag community is a fickle bunch to say the least. I'm either accused not being original enough or I'm being too original and making a huge blunder. It's a tightrope act to say the least.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    From what I can tell, the shape of this detent isn't really that complicated. A replacement part could easily be 3d printed in a pinch.
    Excellent point and one I keep forgetting. This is a very simple 2d shape, one that could be made with basic hand tools. Even without the cad files or one to copy you could probably make one with just a few attempts using basic tools.

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Actually my goal is to manufacture everything in house . . . . . . . .
    Enough said.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    Things have changed over 35 years.
    Accessible CNC is a huge thing too. Luke has pocketed everything and has room for a bottom detent, with the hinge integrated already. He could probably mill the body (hole) for an angel detent into the marker body, where you drop in a ball and spring and cap it off. It would be highly integrated and never move into the bolt, but you would have the resulting wart on the side. All those cuts used to be huge production and prototype money. You youngsters have it so easy.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    Accessible CNC is a huge thing too. Luke has pocketed everything and has room for a bottom detent, with the hinge integrated already. He could probably mill the body (hole) for an angel detent into the marker body, where you drop in a ball and spring and cap it off. It would be highly integrated and never move into the bolt, but you would have the resulting wart on the side.
    I looked into doing a "built in boss" to house the detent spring and ball for the hidden detent under the body but to be honest I feel that a ball style detent is an inferior design.

    All those cuts used to be huge production and prototype money. You youngsters have it so easy.
    LOL, I actually have a small fortune invested in this project as it is. That said though if I had to run all the prototyping through a job shop there is no way this project would have ever seen the light of day.

  10. #370
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    Just imagine how many parts the British would use to make this in the 70s. As you shoot it, parts would be flying off, and it would continue working and sounding worse until it finally died.

    The stickers and elastic wrist bands around it would be functional.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    Just imagine how many parts the British would use to make this in the 70s. As you shoot it, parts would be flying off, and it would continue working and sounding worse until it finally died.

    The stickers and elastic wrist bands around it would be functional.
    You lost me I was 2 in 1970.

  12. #372
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    Small update.

    I get a little paranoid about starting a production run the first go around (lol) so I spent a few days going over everything one last time. Plus I put two more cases of paint through a few different setups which I'm glad I did. Originally I planed on testing a Revy and HALO but spaced out the HALO the first phase of testing. On this past round of testing I put the HALO on and was getting quite a few double feeds. Luckily I had a dozen springs going into this and had a stronger one that work out great. I saved myself $150 since I haven't placed that final order yet.

    Anyway this is where we're at, the second phase of production is set up ready to go.


  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    You lost me I was 2 in 1970.
    He lost me and I was 3 in 1960.....
    Last edited by going_home; 06-30-2016 at 03:05 PM.

  14. #374
    I'm sure you know this but sometimes it's good to hear: seriously, don't rush!

    I don't know your planning, finances, production schedule or any part of it, but if you can get some prototypes in the wild for a month or five...

    Where I work we typically design and build one or three off systems, which are complex mechanical systems, and nearly ground up new designs. The universe almost always dreams up something we didn't. Its generally minor, and it's always fixable, but it isn't always a cheap fix.

    The number of times I've wished we could have prototyped test units for critical subsystems is beyond counting. Don't lose the opportunity to look for bugs

    Again... I'm sure this is all stuff you know, but you might not know that for everyone hoping for one of these now, there's probably someone worried about how soon now is

    Full disclosure: I don't intend to buy one of these, I'm patiently waiting for a spyder-mag frame some time in the future. In the mean time, my gun shoots just fine in mech mode.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Loguzzzzzz View Post
    You're right, I used to draw on velum with ink, tape a drawing to a board and use a "T" square and a few triangles, now I use a computer and a mouse, not sure of your point but mine was to keep things as simple as possible and use parts that are readily available when ever possible. I've never really had any problems with Angel detents in any of my mags but I am sure others have. I've never even "rebuilt" one, never had to. . . .
    What is this "computer" and "mouse" you refer to? What are they for?



    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Excellent point and one I keep forgetting. This is a very simple 2d shape, one that could be made with basic hand tools. Even without the cad files or one to copy you could probably make one with just a few attempts using basic tools.
    Which technically makes this a *simpler* part than an Angel detent. So switching to Angel detents would contradict KISS, and you would have ... a conundrum.



    I think that sub-rail itself is also a mostly-2d part which is also printable for the purposes of prototyping. (Like say validating the modified detent idea.) Would need a different slot shape in the body as you indicated though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-TW View Post
    All those cuts used to be huge production and prototype money. You youngsters have it so easy.
    As a rotten spoiled little brat, that's why I'm not quite so absolute about avoiding complexity. I understand KISS, but lean toward a biomimicry approach where "materials are expensive and shape is cheap". It's sometimes hard to avoid complexity, particularly when you have actual goals to accomplish, so I've taken to loading up complexity into 1 or 2 parts which an entry level machine can handle for me.

  16. #376
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    Which technically makes this a *simpler* part than an Angel detent. So switching to Angel detents would contradict KISS, and you would have ... a conundrum.
    I was only pointing out that if for some reason down the road my detent was unavailable the marker wont become a paper weight.

    Is the T15 detent rubber? It doesn't seem like it would work with force feed hoppers(?)

  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    You lost me I was 2 in 1970.
    Sorry, my father had a import car shop. Have you ever noticed all of the little parts in an Angel? Very much like a TR. Rather than making a single complicated part, or simplifying a design, the Brits were known for using lots of parts and fasteners of unique specs. A detent made from a dozen parts would be very British.

    Back then there was no amount of time that would get you where custom CNC and printing does now. "Simple" itself has changed.


  18. #378
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    No I never dug into the Angel myself but had friends that did.

    I see you're in TX, how do you like it in general? I've been looking to move there myself but really don't know much about the state. I've only been in the pan handle never down in the lower part of the state. I've been basing my searches in the Waco and Austin areas, I'm looking for acreage in the country not in town.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I was only pointing out that if for some reason down the road my detent was unavailable the marker wont become a paper weight.

    Is the T15 detent rubber? It doesn't seem like it would work with force feed hoppers(?)
    I think Spider got it -- it's simply that the idea of "simple" has changed.

    The stock Tiberius detents (T8.9/9.1/15) appear to be some form of synthetic rubber.

    They work totally fine against force feed hoppers, in fact, in my opinion they're too damn stiff and I suspect contribute to paint breakage.

    They're also WTF expensive.

    Which is why people ask me to print them a pile. They're an easy print, and I can also vary the stiffness a bit by switching materials. Hell I have two filaments that are supposed to be the same base material and durometer, just different pigments, but I swear the pigments changed the durometer between the two.



    The two on the left are printed, the 3rd one is the genuine article.

  20. #380
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    How long do they last?

  21. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    How long do they last?
    I don't have much data on that as I'm a pretty low volume user. I sent some out for other people to test, should chase them down. Suspect they are comparable if not slightly better than Tippmann detents.

    The material itself (TPU) is very durable. Most likely failure mode would be splitting at the print layers.

  22. #382
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    Full assembly to help put the body in perspective.



    This setup gave me a great idea that would translate into two new products, biggest obstacle would be figuring out how to machine it. It's as low as #4 or #5 on the list though.

  23. #383
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    Still thinking on this.

    I have a reverse Xvalve to go in it.

    1) How many parts would need to be anodized for the full deal (I will get a price from Mario at FX) ?

    2) Would you send them directly to the anodizer and assemble it when he is done (I would send you the valve) ?

  24. #384
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    Drop shipping to your anodizing guy is doable if you set it all up. I can assemble and test too.

    Ano parts list
    Body
    Carrier- (hidden)
    Left grip
    Right grip
    Grip frame
    Trigger
    Feedneck ring- (hidden)
    Feed Cup
    FG-LPR top
    FG-LPR bottom
    FG-LPR (inner) reg top- (hidden)

    I believe that's it.
    Last edited by luke; 07-03-2016 at 11:56 AM.

  25. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Small update.



    Ohhh my thats pretty.

  26. #386
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    Makin the donuts.
    Should finish these cycles up around 10pm tonight or tomorrow if I peter out.


  27. #387
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    Didn't get out of the shop until 11:30 last night but I finished up the first two steps in production of the slug bodies. I'm doing two sizes in this run.

    Not sure if you guys are interested in seeing production pictures but here's where were at as of this morining:



    Next step is to tear down this setup and set-up the machine for step three. I'm planing on doing that today but probably not much more.


  28. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Drop shipping to your anodizing guy is doable if you set it all up. I can assemble and test too.

    Ano parts list
    Body
    Carrier
    Left grip
    Right grip
    Grip frame
    Trigger
    Neck ring
    Neck main
    FG-LPR top
    FG-LPR Bottom
    FG-LPR (inner) reg top

    I believe thats it.
    Will some of those parts be hidden? I only ask for anodizing reasons. If it's hidden it wont necessarily need the matching ano job, it will just need to be properly sealed

  29. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIG BOB View Post
    Will some of those parts be hidden? I only ask for anodizing reasons. If it's hidden it wont necessarily need the matching ano job, it will just need to be properly sealed
    Good question, yes. I'll update the first post.

  30. #390
    Please, post as much as you can/want of the whole process.

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