Stainless Steel 'Mag Lover
Wait, what?Originally Posted by Nobody
So as a manufacturer, you put out what someone wants at a good price and then wait to see if someone else wants your piece? You don't do a cost/risk analysis, even as a niche shop, to determine your feasibility of saying "yes" or "no" to a job?
Nobody's Perfect
More valuable to you, but the majority of mags now use threaded barrels. There are some "purest" out there, and i wouldn't begrudge them from keeping their twist locks, but the choices cor more modern barrels is limited. I remember in passing that AGD did have a slew of bodies made, but then the idea or implementation of the threaded body became pretty much standard. Look at why people went for PTP micromags? The aluminium bodies(not only could be anno'd for personal tastes) but had the better barrel choice(NOT necessarily the better barrel system).
Sorry, my statement was disjointed. At work, frustrated and hating people.
You sir are in the minority of wants. Do you have either of the top priced guns? Yes, that is very generic to say, as i do have generic purchases: an axe, a resurrection, an ego. But mine is an ID Krypontite Axe, a ID Ripper Resurrection and an older Ego06.
The arch of guns has always been in this century has been: electros, mechs, pumps then stock class/mag feed. To a point, you have to go to the biggest market to survive. Making a few of this or that does not set the world on fire. A bolt action gun? That is a novelty, pure and simple. Without firststrikes, it is even less of a novelty. Its an expensive paperweight. Maybe i am on the wrong coast for Palmers, but if they were great, where is the push for them to be at every field? Now i do love a blazer. I will get one, if i can find the right one, but i do not need it...
Now i do fully support the companies i like. AGD, ICD, ID. I believe in their products, use their products. I try to get people to also support them. I won't twist their arms if they don't use, yet will always be their suggesting them. If i can convert 1 person to what i use, then i am a happy person.
You sir, are unique. In the way yoj play, bow you set up your gear. If the fields where filled with you, then you would be in the majority, thusly not be unique. I take no umbridge if you disagree. I, in fact like it. That is how discussions & understanding happens.
i'll go ahead and disagree with that. based on what i've seen over the past few years, and even what i have in my collection, steel bodies with twistlock barrels outnumber threaded bodies by at least 5-to-1. lots and lots and lots of classic 'mags still out there, and still kicking butt!
Hebrews 13:8
I'll go ahead and say it, powerfeeds with elbows, and twist locks are junk.
Hoppers flipping around, no fun to replace barrel detents........
Registered User
Trying not to feed the trolls here... it's hard to resist.
There was a good thread on this a few years ago. https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...t=ptp+micromag
Micromags were a very good value when compared to the base Automag price and other custom markers of that time. They remained popular for nearly 10 years.
Here's some reasons why Micromags were/are awesome
AO Micromag Guy
Yes, they did... markers and accesories. In fact they hold the patent for the 'cat series firing system; the roller valve.
You want a list? First aluminum Automag body, first unibody Automag, first threaded-barrel Automag, the first threaded sear pin. Popularized the 45 frame for Automag and Autococker - it became the standard on most markers for a decade to follow. Put a factory detent on the Autococker before WGP did, and put a superior detent on automags, VM68s and M98s. Put powerfeeds on Autocockers, VM68s and M98s. Put trigger adjustment screws in Autococker frames. Offered double trigger Automag and Autococker frames. These all seem pretty standard now, but weren't then.
Maybe you had to be there, playing, to appreciate what PTP did and what they offered in their heyday... Those who started in the late 90s and early 2000s are somewhat spoiled in two senses; first, most markers came with detents, velocity adjusters, regulators and expansion chamber, and were designed to be easy to strip and adjust. Second, the internet and the "big business" era of paintball made a lot of options available nationwide, including many marker colors, truly drop-in upgrades, and easy to find, paintball-oriented anodizing services. Private labels and customshop guns produced in large numbers.
When I started playing you could buy from a catalog or on the shelf at a local shop, and most guns were bricks or tubes in silver or black, maybe a solid color. My first autococker was a Boston Paintball Express with some simple cuts, a trigger job, and a handful of upgrade parts from various brands. Custom options were regional or catalog order items, many of which were "garage customs" offered by fields and custom shops, with raw cuts and hand-done trigger jobs. PTP offered "factory customs" with a unique and uniform finish, piles of "upgrades" ready to go from the factory, cheaper than Carters or BBTs, and as easily available in California as they were in Massachusetts. That model was copied and echoed by other companies for years to come.
Their products did not wither on the shelf when paintball was their focus; they did MANY revolutionary things when paintball was their focus, and owned a decent market share for as long as Autocockers and Automags were a competitive standard. After 9/11 they shifted their focus to military contracts, did a crummy deal with Viewloader, and focused on military grade milsim Tippmann accessories... rather than moving on to Intimidators and Matrixes when they became the tournament standard. In that sense, they copied market trends (milsim on the rise, big-box store guns gaining popularity) but simply made the wrong choices.
*shrugs* junk in your opinion, of course. in the end it's just an aluminum (or steel, or brass!) tube...it does the job. also, my hoppers don't flip around (armson pro-feed elbow!), and the detents take an o-ring pick and 15 seconds to change lol.
Hebrews 13:8
You are right, just an opinion, they are like feet, most people have them and most of them stink...
Registered User
I prefer twist lock barrels and I buy micro mags mainly for the finish and the more accessories that match the better. my only complaint with the PTP elbows is they aren't see thru.
Registered User
Great post, Frizzle! Really sums things up much more eloquently than I could have put it.
This part especially rings true. These days it's easy to say "the cocker threaded mag body is common", but by the time ULE bodies and X-valves were released the Micromag was already 10 years old and no longer even being produced!
AO Micromag Guy
It's also important to remember that the final iteration of the AGD Automag, Toms magnum opus, the X-mag was a unibody which PTP pioneered... and the Emag lowers it utilized were developed through collaboration between AGD and PTP.
lukescustoms.com
I thought Simon designed the X-Mag and that they were machined by the owner of AGD Europe(?)
AO Micromag Guy
Right, but the concept of a unibody was developed in the early 90s. I'm not saying PTP designed the Xmag body, only that they came up with the unibody concept. Maybe calling it "Toms" was a bad choice, but the point is for years AGD made two piece models, and the final and arguably greatest product ended up being functionally similar to PTPs original design from years earlier.
PTP did work with AGD to design the form and function Emag frame, though, which was used on the Xmag.
lukescustoms.com
Yea, I was only indicating that I didn't think TK himself was responsible for the design of the X-Mag, the rest of what you said sounds spot on.
Junior Mint
Yeah we're having a failure in communication.
I agree with you, most people are on threaded barrels. Including me.
I don't covet the stainless bodies because I want to use TL barrels.
I covet the stainless bodies because they give me direct breech access. Most recently, I've used this to tinker with detents, and I knew like clockwork that the magic of PTP detents would come up in this discussion. I'm loaded for bear this time though.
Anyways, that'd be a shame to let all those bodies go to waste.
That part was all sarcasm from me. I don't hold Palmer's or CCM in much regard either. Figured it would be faster to demonstrate the ridiculous situation by highlighting their actual products. Both of the products I mentioned are pushing the limits of manufacturer contempt for its own customer base, and their customers eat it up and come back for more. Some people are too far gone to recognize it for what it is.
The part that gets me is the "support of manufacturers" bit.
Maybe I'm the most disloyal customer ever (probably), but I feel no loyalty to any manufacturer, and don't feel I need or should "support" them. If they make good products, then they don't need my "support". If they make retarded products... I'm not going to support them either.
I love the basic Automag system, but I don't support AGD.
There's an innocent side to this, but there's also kind of a malicious side to this, and it's kind of what we see here and elsewhere. "Support" in the case of bad products amounts to willfully overlooking problems, and there is a LOT of that going around.
The notion that the 2K9 reverse tanked PTP's previous products is kind of silly.
The products had flaws all this time, and people were just all too willing to overlook them because they apparently took some oath of fealty or something.
Some of you guys selling yourselves to the manufacturers are letting yourselves go for a little too cheap (and I'm not talking about you, Nobody). Or maybe not. Maybe that really is the limit of your value.
"Accuracy by aiming."
Definitely not on the A-Team.
AO Micromag Guy
The PTP detent was superior to the wire detents offered on mags at the time, and the "no detent" (or wire if you paid a premium) on cockers. It was also an upgrade compared to the "magic fingers" on the VM68 and M98... Should they have updated to thread-in ball detents for the MM2000? Perhaps, but I'd imagine they had a lot of their detents on the shelf to use, and it was one of their signature products. All of their markers other than the 2K9 predate common use of modern rubber nub detents, and at the time the 2K9 was released, the screw-in detents they used were a dated technology.
As for "issues" with previous products, I don't recall having any more than I did with other similar products, and I've owned 50+ Micromags and 20+ PTP cockers... I'll admit, I'm a fan, but if there was truly a widespread tolerance issue I'm sure I would have encountered it at least once. The only issues I found were some need for sanding/honing to use L10 bolts in the mag bodies (which came out before the L10 existed, can you fault them?) and the tendency for Micrococker backblocks/sleds to wear out around the threaded section and the cocking slot.
Registered User
Please grace us with your wisdom. What flaws were these?
I don't claim to be a mind reader, but I'm willing to bet you're going to talk about either A)BigEvil's claims of issues on some PTP MicroEmags or B)people claiming issues using lvlX bolts on a select few Micromags.
A) I'm sure he's right. Like the MM2k9 these shouldn't reflect on previous generations of Micromags.
B) The lvlX bolt came out after Micromags were no longer produced. Another way to look at this: Why were lvlX bolts not made to the exact same spec as previous generations?
lukescustoms.com
You're making a pretty big assumption here.
Hebrews 13:8
I'm looking at integrity.
PTP ended with damaged or no integrity, ask anyone involved with the 2K9 Micromag or the Cocker debacle.
To compare them with AGD/Tom Kaye ..... well, he did not go out by walking away from flawed products.
So this absolutely does reflect on them as a company, to say it doesn't is ludicrous .
Fanboys can say what they want, they are absolutely a minority on this one.
The two people that have had to fix (or try and fix) their attempt at an Emag have already spoken in this thread .... not to mention, how many 2K9 bodies has Luke fixed ?
They are probably nice people, and made some nicely anodized stuff, but end the end left a lot of people that trusted them holding the bag.
These forums have had more than their share of disastrous pre-buys, this wasn't expected from PTP, but now they are lumped in with the rest of the failures.
VA is for mag lovers
Seems like there is some micromag knowledge here. I have a couple of 09 micromag bodies I was going to get fixed by luke this spring but that option has sailed.
Anybody else know where to have these bodies fixed?
Or give me an idea how? and I will have a local guy do the milling.
AO Micromag Guy
I don't think anyone is defending the MM2K9 or the last 'cocker project. I bought two of the mags, and had issues with one. I stayed away from the autocockers. I don't stand behind those, and PTP didn't either... which is messed up. I agree.
To answer your question, read my previous posts... To those of us who were playing when PTP was in their heyday, and used their products during the 12 years that the company was focused on paintball and released 15+ markers, they were and are a big deal. It wasn't just flashy anodizing; they made revolutionary high quality products with new features, by new methods, and offered something (many somethings) that others just weren't at the time. They stood behind their products, and made every generation a little better than the last. They worked with AGD to develop some of the products that defined the platform. In their time, they changed the industry with their work. You can say they "aren't much" but compared to other markers of the time, or the ones they were based on, they were a pretty big deal.Why is it that some people are all gaga over any markers by Pro Team Products ?
I just dont get it, the Micromags, the Cockers, why ?
When you get past the anodizing (if the have other than black) they arent much IMHO.
Am I biased because of the 2009 Micromag debacle , or the one that happened over on custom cockers ?
I'm not defending them now, just pointing out that there was PTP from 1990 to 2002 which released piles of markers and parts which were GREAT, then there were two limited run products made 8 years after what was effectively their departure from the paintball world which they screwed up royally both in quality and customer service... now they're not in the paintball industry, really, except to sell off old stock. Don't want to do business with them now? Fine, they're not making new stuff anyway... if they didn't learn their lesson with the MM2K9 they certainly did with the cocker.
So why do people like PTP? They made a ton of great stuff. So people are "gaga" over the 15+ markers that were amazing, and still are... and not so much about the two that came much later and were terrible.
Last edited by Frizzle Fry; 02-14-2016 at 11:19 PM.
Stainless Steel 'Mag Lover
This thread has devolved almost to the point of the debate of why people choose to shoot Automags vs other, more modern markers.Why is it that some people are all gaga over any markers by Pro Team Products ?
I just dont get it, the Micromags, the Cockers, why ?
When you get past the anodizing (if the have other than black) they arent much IMHO.
Am I biased because of the 2009 Micromag debacle , or the one that happened over on custom cockers ?
Lets see if I can answer the questions from the original post in the way a true Maggot should.
Answer: To each his own. There could be many reasons why but all are a personal choice.
Answer: See above.
Response to statement: See above.
Answer: Yes. Regardless of what happened most recently with the company, you can't take away their history of success.
Nobody's Perfect
How about this. I know of a company that bought out another company that for no other reason, literally trashed $100,000 or so of usable, wanted and basically still usable parts, only cause they choose to do a tax write-off instead of selling it. True story...
Now for you or people that either see value in the old or modify existing parts for their own use. That is great, and its what custom truly means. Back in the late 90s early 2000s. People left and right where doing it to suit them, and is great. Hell, i helped build a double mag and would do so again in a heartbeat.
I have not used their detents and really have no opinion on them other than what i see. Which is 1) if it was good, why didn't anyone copy it? 2) they are huge, probably expensive to make compared to the cocker detent, or even the rebuildable detents 3) the simplier detent generally wins the day & 4) aesthetically, they are rather uncomplementary to the look or the lines of the gun.
Missed your emoticon there....
I am horrible and i don't do what i preach. I generally buy 95% of all my stuff through secondary markets, whether its through parts houses, used or through dealers. Rarely does it go direct back to the manufacturer.
Yet, by being on here, this forum, i hope to help those with problems on a gun i use and believe in, show them what they can do, and to help spread the word, as it where, by using the gun at the field; readily handing it out for people to take a spin with it.
Likewise, i do not try to swallow the koolaid or beat the drum, blindly. I won't just buy something, just because it came from a company. I still judge each product on its own and how it can help me.
As for Ptp, i never liked them, except for the 2K Micromag. The unibody is cool, but other people have gone with more of the Xmag body than the PTPs, unless i am mistaken. The bodies are heavier(though would love to see actual data on them) than powerfeed bodies, especially with classic valves. I do truly hate the safety on the Benchmark frames and the double triggers are looser than a hotdog down a school hallway. As for the annos. They are cool, but they can be made again, or even improved upon. They aren't that special. A PK selective period Eclipse splash anno is more impressive to me, but i vuess that is my opinion.
U R techno-literate!
I think the older PTP stuff deserves its following. PTP is still trying on occasion to get back to that success.
On "vintage" features, some are immaterial in the present market, and some you have to remember to use them as intended. On gas efficiency; with HPA and superlight tanks, who cares? If you really want CO2, go old school or shoot something else, it's not hard. Now that we have good feeders, good power feed plugs, good detents, and level 10 bolts, I hardly need to pull my barrel off in-game; how it is attached hardly matters.
Power feeds were to help when we were using WGP AMMO BOX's. After that, even revvys only held 100 rounds. If you stick with a small loader and shoot accordingly, power feeds are nice. Once you up-armor the elbow, clamps, and loader, they get ugly.
So, by the same token, I have to give the PTP fans their space on vintage stuff, especially the ano. Kind of like cars, some models and years are hard to beat, even with the latest and greatest.
Mags, tho...
I've never owned or even shot a micro, but I will say this:
The Iguana anno pattern of theirs is so so so good looking
Registered User
I did not know this existed.The Iguana anno pattern of theirs is so so so good looking
That is beautiful.
Haters Gonna Hate
they were a revolutionary, or at least procuded something unique company at one point. they were the first factory to make halfblock cockers, power feed cockers, and on the mag side the first to cocker thread, aluminum body and that sort of thing.
no idea why one would be a fan-boi of them anymore.
"because every vengeful cop with a lesbian daughter, is having a bad day, and looking for someone to blame"
Registered User
At what point does one cross the line from enthusiast, collector, hobbyist, tinkerer... to "fan-boi"?
I'm genuinely curious what the definition is. Is it possible to have a preferred marker and not be a "fanboy" of said marker? Does the term "fan-boi" say more about the person using it than it does about the people it's directed at?
Registered User
For any reasonable (sub $500) amount of money you wont be able to replicate the PK select ano. Note that a lot of the pics shown in this thread are not PK select, as when PK went down the ****ter ptp has tries finding other reliable anodizers and has had a hell of a time.
http://www.peterkellettart.com this is the Peter Kellart that PK stands for. He was awesome back then, but on some next level **** now. Basically a commissioned anodizing artist with some high end corporate clients.
PK basically intentionally priced themselves out of PB ano by charging anywhere from$600-$900 a job. By any review of anyone that still pushed them to do a marker it was far from the work that Peter originally did.
They did other equally cool patterns for other companies but the ones done for PTP were exclusive, part of the agreement is they could never use them for other companies.
Say what you want about the markers, but the anodizing is really special. Like I'll reiterate, id never own one that wasn't a PK select, at this point they really aren't anything special like the other private labels. The milling is bland and the pneumatics (on the cockers) are far from special. I'm sure they were something at the time, but they aren't rare or sought after.
Last edited by boo; 02-15-2016 at 04:26 PM.
Stainless Steel 'Mag Lover
Again...here we go. Ironically from the same guy with "haters gonna hate" below his screen name.
Why are you a fan boy of AGD or Cockers given they are "outdated" by most players standards?
Its like asking why someone likes to go camping...or play basketball...or likes a particular breed of dog...or likes cheeseburgers.
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