you touched a nerve on this one Allen.
Registered User
you touched a nerve on this one Allen.
Hebrews 13:8
Originally Posted by vintage
I dont see any hate from the detractors.Just fun and informative .
Not hate, just no love , zero .
Where I see it coming from is some of the defenders.
After all this I personally dont see a reason to collect PTP stuff.
I guess after all though people do collect salt and pepper shakers, so......
To modify Gordons saying just a bit, collectors gonna collect.........
U R techno-literate!
Right? "Reason to collect"? No such thing.
Junior Mint
If you wonder why I kept harping on the weight issue, it’s simply because of stuff like this:
You guys say this stuff and it never really gets challenged. And it really should. All the points that I cover don’t come from me -- they come from you. I am more or less just marching down your list(s).
So, onto P-P-P-Powerfeeds.
Didn't AGD invent the powerfeed and already put it on its mags? Like 1991?
Then why is this a notable PTP achievement? Because you could anodize your feedneck?
I will say that I am a huge fan of the removable feedneck (because I hate feednecks); enough to seriously consider using the previously pictured Micromag as my development platform, but I just couldn't get the stench of PTP out of my nostrils. It smells like someone dipped a sausage-on-a-stick in cornmeal based batter and deep fried it until it was a delicious golden disgusting brown.
But nobody ever did anything with the removable feedneck.
So I fail to see how any of this ranks above “barely notable”.
Oh, sorry. I got confused. You see the PTP side is repeatedly throwing Autococker evidence into an Automag discussion. More on that later. Suffice to say, I guess it’s fair to drag other markers in as supporting material...
"Accuracy by aiming."
Definitely not on the A-Team.
Junior Mint
I should probably quote at least one instance of the thing I'm referencing lest you think I'm being unfair.
Why is a threaded sear axle some sort of technological achievement?
Because it fixes a problem caused by making the mag unibody?
There are a number of other ways to solve this problem.
For example, a press fit axle. Just like on the trigger frames. Works for the trigger frames, works for the sear.
I guess a press fit pin might not work so well if you can't keep tolerances.
Wait what would mess with tolerances? Perhaps... the anno process?
Anyways, there are a couple of other options besides press-fit pins, but it seems the options chosen by PTP happen to be the most complicated (threading/grip wings/other weirdness).
AO Micromag Guy
I know I said I wouldn't post again, but...
A press fit axle? Like a rolled pin, or a flanged pin that you'd have to use a hammer and a pin punch to install or remove? Sounds inconvenient.
The purpose of a threaded pin is simple; to make fieldstripping the market more simple. A threaded sear axle is easier on the user than one that needs to be dropped into place and balanced to assemble, and can fall out when disassembling the marker (like the one in Classic and Minimags, and early Micromags; I know I've lost a few in my time). I'd assume that's why AGD adopted the threaded sear axle as the standard for the RT, RT Pro, Emag and Xmag - I.E. all of their production markers developed after the Micromag. I'd call that an advancement- the proof is in the pudding.
As for winged frames, there are reason for their development beyond sear pin retention in early Micromags. You'll notice that DYE and 32* frames, neither of which were manufactured by PTP/Benchmark, have wings as well - was this to fill the niche market of Micromag users? No, it's because 45 frames are wider than cast aluminum or composite AGD euroframes. If you look at one of your classic rails, you'll see that there are two angled channels on either side of the bottom where these wings slide in - if you use a flattop 45 frame with these rails, the frame will overhang on either side and leave a very apparent gap. In fact, the first PTP Micromags with threaded sear pins also used winged frames. It wasn't until the RT was released in '96 that flat top 45 frames were developed, and Micromags didn't use them until the 2K model.
These wings and channels are more than cosmetic - they also ensure that the rear frame hole doesn't twist out of alignment when you remove the valve without completely disassembling the marker. This is more important with Micromags and Classics using ULE bodies, which don't have a barrel twistlock assembly to help keep the frame aligned, but it can cause an issue with any marker using a classic rail or classic rail specs. AGDs solution to this problem was a "rail bushing", which like an unfixed sear axle, can simply fall out when stripping the marker. You'll note that AGD released their first wider frame, the Zgrip, in two configurations; with and without wings - the former for Classics and the latter for RTs. When the Intelliframe and Yframe were released they were only made as flat tops, because they were intended for use with RT spec rails which don't accept winged frames.
I think you're grasping at straws, but I don't blame you... Again, and I can't stress this enough, if you weren't there playing at the time, your views on many or most of these things are bound to be colored by a lack of history and the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. I don't mean that as a dig, just a statement on why someone who started playing well after these developments had become commonplace, or outlived their usefulness or popularity.
lukescustoms.com
I believe it's an advancement because it maintains better geometry between the bolt, sear and on/off. I've never really investigated the performance differences but there seems but be much less play with the 1/8" threaded pin design. Some of that has to do with the bushing surface being wider than the am sear without the bushing. Having said that though, I believe that the bushing was an AGD innovation.
Last edited by luke; 02-20-2016 at 04:35 PM.
AO Micromag Guy
I had a Micromag with a threaded sear axle in 96, if it was AGDs doing it was done concurrently.
Half a bubble off...
I never mentioned another marker, and as for weight, when the Micro was released it was lighter than SS mags, now, not so much, but that is progress. By today's standards the Micro is not really anything special except as a classic marker. I get that, still like them, so still use it. As for the powerfeeds, while I would prefer if someone would mill an aluminum vert feed to replace my powerfeed adapter, in the mean time I bought one of the 3D printed ones, have not used it yet but it seems like it will work just fine.
That which does not kill us, cripples us for life.
lukescustoms.com
PTP didn't use the axle bushing though.
AO Micromag Guy
Correct, they used a threaded pin which was as wide as the classic sear hole, and continued to use classic-spec sears, even on the MicroEmag. My point was more that they were offering threaded Micromags on the Gen3 body in 96 which was when the RT (the first AGD product with a threaded sear) was released, and that they may have been offering it earlier even - tough to say. I bought an RT around launch, and already owned a Micromag with a threaded sear pin.
Junior Mint
Be careful with this. If adoption makes right, then lack of adoption might mean wrong. You’re better off not using reasoning like this, lest it be used against you.
I think the basic problem here is that you think history was right. That the things that happened were right, and they necessarily happened because they were right. And anybody who didn't think they were right must not have seen the history or something. I may dig into this a bit later.
Moving on...
1. I have never found it necessary to separate the sear from the rail in-field (and almost never off field either). The last time I pulled a sear from one of my primaries was 4 years ago, and that was when that one was born. I do want it to stay in place, and threading’s not necessary for that.
2. Some generations of MM rely on the winged grip to retain the sear pin which seems like a bad idea in its own right. Which direction the smell blew in from is not really that interesting, unless you’re just trying to figure out which direction to run away from.
3. I'm pretty sure it's inconvenient to be screwed out of a custom sear pin from PTP. Pretty sure. Especially when it shouldn’t have been necessary.
I went through the same thing making my rail. When I started out, I decided to avoid the classic sear pin and the way that's done for the more sane overall RTP style.
But I struggled with how to cleanly produce the threads for the RTP pin when I realized, "Why the Hell am I making this harder than it needs to be? Press fit a pin and move on."
That was about 4 years ago. And again, that's not the only possible solution; I had alternates planned. But it works just fine and I'm not beholden to some absentee company for unnecessarily custom pins.
Compared to the classic setup, probably. I kind of wondered that myself, which was another reason I went away from the classic sear/axle.
Compared to a pin that is press-fit captive and riding against an extended bushing? Not sure. I do think the bushing has merit; more so than the threaded pin.
Regardless, if PTP used a solution that was technically better, but their results were still worse in some cases... That does not paint a rosy picture.
“We made all these technically awesome changes to the gun!”
“Then why does it still not chrono over 260?”
“Uhm… look at the pretty anodizing? SMOKEBOMB!”
Hebrews 13:8
I'm just going to put this right here.....
Registered User
You know you've made a good product when over 20 years later an attack on its merits has devolved into a debate over the pin you used to retain the sear.
AO Micromag Guy
No, that's flawed logic. There are many reasons why a company can fail to adopt something new; they may lack the financial or manufacturing means, lack the legal right to use the technology, choose not to include a feature that will cost more to produce and slim an already narrow margin, or force a price increase that takes a product outside of its target market. Some manufacturers try to pursue different solutions to the same problem new features address, while others don't think it's a problem at all (even if their customers do) - case in point, Budd Orr was the last person to consider putting detent on his marker design; he didn't feel they were necessary, but customers did, and the customers won out in the long run. That something newer and better follows the creation of an innovative product does not mean the first product wasn't innovative - that's the nature of innovation; it's technological and intellectual leapfrog.
No, I'm not saying history was right, just that it happened... That is, people encountered needs, and these previously unaddressed needs were addressed by PTP products and designs. You don't even seem to be aware of the problems, or the reasoning behind the development of the solutions, which is why I bring up context and historical perspective.
Did these products and solutions meet needs and solve problems that customer were experiencing and others weren't successfully meeting/solving? Yes. Were they the best answers compared to to some of those that we have 20+ years later? Probably not, but we also have the benefit of 20 years of trial and error to thank for that - that's called hindsight. So when you attack based on your feel that wings aren't needed on a frame, or that a threaded sear pin has no value, that may be due to your needs being different than the needs of many customers at the time - or a lack of understanding of the needs of customers at the time.
Right, so your play style and field stripping needs and disassembly needs are different than other customers who encountered an issue in the past, at a time might I add, when a pressed pin would not have been possible with the rail design offered by AGD. What about a customer who switches between a mechanical frame and emag lowers? Or a mechanical frame and a pneumag frame? A press fit sear axle would hinder their ability to do so easily.
I (and most of my teammates) would strip our markers entirely to clean them after a tournament - some of us took gun hits which made cleaning the area between the rail and the body necessary, others had chops which ran through the body, but as a rule we'd strip down our markers and toss the bodies/rails/frames in the dishwasher. I know for a fact that other players did this at the time as well - I probably still have polaroids somewhere of 20+ mags in my old dishwasher. If it's necessary to remove the body on a classic marker, you run the risk of dropping the sear axle out, even if you're not intending to remove the sear.
Right, so they addressed that on later models by making a threaded pin. They were working with the specs and design of the existing AGD automag rail at the time - for frame compatibility purposes? Or because it was easier to copy what was already there? They couldn't drop in a pin from the top because of the unibody design, so they did it from the side. Clearly they saw a need to improve and they did, by switching to a threaded sear axle in the third generation of their marker. The design of the product progressed and was refined over time. Can you beat them up for having an issue with an early model which was fixed by a later model?
Beat the dead horse one more time - nobody disputes that, but again it really has nothing to do with classic Micromags, with or without threaded sear pins.
OK, so you leaned towards something that existed, ruling out an older design that didn't work as well, and ended up using a completely new design in the long run. Sounds familiar.
The bushing has merit to you now, but think about why you landed on it for your final product... You personally didn't have the need to remove your pin frequently, but the initial reason you sought alternatives was that didn't have the ability to produce the threads for the threaded sear pin. You were hindered by an inability to produce what you wanted initially, and found a different solution which you found met your needs and the needs of your customers. Will that change going forward based on the availability of new means, or the demands of customers? Will another person who does have the means to include an RTP sear axle or an alternative technology bring similar rail to market, would they find more or less success? Time will tell.
One of the things that sets current AGD users aside is that we play with a dead platform - we appreciate the merits of a design that has been effectively left behind by the industry. We are not the "typical customer" or we'd be playing with newer common designs or products to the exclusion of Automags, but we see merit in a design or product that meets our needs as customers but not the needs of the greater paintball market. Peoples enjoyment, use and collecting of PTPs older products are a microcosm of exactly what drives people to AGDs older products now.
You make springfeeds, rails, and magazines - those are innovative. They're unique designs which address a problem or need in the market utilizing new ideas or applying old ideas in new ways. With that said, they're a niche product, competing with a smaller number of competitors for a smaller group of customers than products offered by, say, Inception or Lukes. You're also designing these products for yourself, and sharing many of the designs - your goal isn't always to make a profit, to maintain or grow your market share. You have the benefit of working in less expensive materials, with previously unavailable technology which, while expensive for consumers is inexpensive relative compared to industrial machinery which is needed to use more expensive and in-demand materials. That doesn't detract from the quality of your products, or the benefits of your designs, in fact it benefits your model and creates a draw.
You're talking about the MM2K9 again, which doesn't have pretty anodizing and has no bearing on the threaded sear pins they started offering 14 years earlier.
There weren't issues with the threaded sear pins on Gen3, Gen4, and Gen5. There weren't velocity issues, or detent placement issues, or any of the other issues which plagued the MM2K9.... This thread was created to address the things that make PTP markers attractive to collectors - most of whom focus on the 15+ old ones that work, not the two new ones that had design issues, production issues, marketing issues and customer service issues.
The MM2K9 wasn't even a PTP design; it was designed by an AO member due to general interest in a new marker being created - why? Because people LIKED older PTP markers and wanted a new one, or they were attracted by the new features it alleged to offer. It wasn't offered with a pretty ano pattern, your choices were black, dust black, gunmetal or raw so color options clearly weren't the draw. PTP screwed it up royally; their tolerances were all over the place and many of the markers didn't work, they iced the cake with delay after delay, bad customer service and the failure to deliver parts and other product. Nobody is disputing that, the question is how does that balance with the decade plus of good customer service and quality products that preceded their more recent screwups, and why DID people like their older products, why DO they like their older products now and find them worth collecting?
I've been out of paintball for 2 years; I sold my collection to take care of medical bills. All I've got left, really, is a nonfunctional MM2K9 body that I can't in good conscience pass on to another person because it does not work properly and I'm fairly sure it can't be made to... I doubt anybody here would invest in a new PTP product; I certainly wouldn't, and why the guys on Custom Cockers chose to is completely beyond me, as is what PTP was thinking when they pulled that crap on the heels of the MM2K9. However, if I was to start playing again, I wouldn't hesitate to buy an older PTP product as many other AO'ers do and have done. I ordered a product from a user on this site who I won't name, a custom body, and never received it - many customers did get theirs and they worked, but I was unable to contact the manufacturer (they didn't answer my emails, it was too late for PayPal) and I've not heard anything since. I wouldn't buy a marker from them either, but I don't feel that reflects on the quality of service or product they offered in the past, which is what attracted me to them - it only matters going forward.
Stainless Steel 'Mag Lover
Well said!
Junior Mint
I'm taking my time with this thread, and rest assured all for the less than notable points you guys covered will be adressed, just not in one sitting.
You guys should read this Google+ post, including the comments:
https://plus.google.com/+AndreasSchou/posts/WbRHrsn45JT
Only discussing the sear because it's being touted as... what was the word... revolutionary? Was that the word? Is anyone going to amend that?
I dug up a classic sear+pin and measured the pin.
First thing I did was emit a few expletives regarding customary units.
And then I thought... hrm. 3/16" sounds kind of familiar.
Dug into a drawer for some old crap that I was going to use for PC modding but never got around to.
Looks pretty goofy, but functionally... seemed to come out right. Shaft was taken from an old CDROM drive.
The problem is that there's no rail out there that supports this configuration. So I had to make one. But I can't print a full rail. I can only print... part of one.
That looks REALLY goofy. It's just barely, barely enough to hold the gun together; I'm relying more on the grip frame to keep things together.
The print didn't even come out right; the ends lifted off the bed so it's kind of distorted, and I should adjust for some print issues. (Sear holes came out way too large, but that's OK because the sear's holding onto the sear pin now.)
Yep.
As badly out of spec as that rail was (not to mention my amateur rivet work), it actually worked just fine. I had a small leak out the front at rest because it's an LX bolt and I would need to adjust the shims for this configuration; I could kind of wiggle things and make the leak go away.
Couple of things:
1. Press fit classic sear pin appears to work just fine.
2. I know mags are renown for intolerance of poor tolerances, but if I can make something like this which actually works... imagine what kind of colossal, industrial grade f-up is actually necessary to produce a failure. Like I said, you can't do superior things and produce worse results..
I mean, you can, but don't expect people to celebrate it.
So it's OK to say that adoption of something is absolutely "proof in the pudding", but lack of adoption means nothing? That is extremely convenient.
The rest of this is, again, just deferring to history and a couple of other psychological tells which I can link later.
I wasn't just talking about the MM2K9, it extends to the other products as well. Where was that one thread where PTP just gave up and replaced a customers marker with an emag?The MM2K9 wasn't even a PTP design; it was designed by an AO member due to general interest in a new marker being created - why? Because people LIKED older PTP markers and wanted a new one, or they were attracted by the new features it alleged to offer. It wasn't offered with a pretty ano pattern, your choices were black, dust black, gunmetal or raw so color options clearly weren't the draw. PTP screwed it up royally; their tolerances were all over the place and many of the markers didn't work, they iced the cake with delay after delay, bad customer service and the failure to deliver parts and other product. Nobody is disputing that, the question is how does that balance with the decade plus of good customer service and quality products that preceded their more recent screwups, and why DID people like their older products, why DO they like their older products now and find them worth collecting?
I've been out of paintball for 2 years; I sold my collection to take care of medical bills. All I've got left, really, is a nonfunctional MM2K9 body that I can't in good conscience pass on to another person because it does not work properly and I'm fairly sure it can't be made to... I doubt anybody here would invest in a new PTP product; I certainly wouldn't, and why the guys on Custom Cockers chose to is completely beyond me, as is what PTP was thinking when they pulled that crap on the heels of the MM2K9. However, if I was to start playing again, I wouldn't hesitate to buy an older PTP product as many other AO'ers do and have done. I ordered a product from a user on this site who I won't name, a custom body, and never received it - many customers did get theirs and they worked, but I was unable to contact the manufacturer (they didn't answer my emails, it was too late for PayPal) and I've not heard anything since. I wouldn't buy a marker from them either, but I don't feel that reflects on the quality of service or product they offered in the past, which is what attracted me to them - it only matters going forward.
Even if ithe 2k9 wasn't PTPs design, they should have been the gatekeepers. They're supposed to be the exalted experts with whatever number of years of historical experience and the glory of paintball generations past and the majesty of anodizing blah blah blah blah. I
Junior Mint
Today, let's talk about PTP detents.
Let's start off with the obligatory quote(s) to clarify that I'm responding to statements already made.
The PTP detent is kind of this big clunky thing that is really kind of overkill and underkill at the same time. A detent doesn't really need to be that large or that invasive to work, and you still only get 1 detent when I'm kind of convinced that 2 opposing ones is a better setup.
And if your "play style" is such that you take body hits that literally require sear removal to clean*, then you're gonna hate a detent that cuts a relatively gaping slot in your body that leads directly into your breech for no good reason, because you WILL be taking hits there, and they WILL foul your shots directly, unlike paint between the body/rail which won't affect performance for the most part. And since these bodies aren't twist lock, that means if you really want to clean it all out, you have to unscrew the barrel (assuming the barrel is even removable in the first place). So you can't possibly like this detent if you're really that "xtreme", particularly considering you can do as good or better with smaller, smarter, less obnoxious designs. So if you thought cleaning paint out from the sear was annoying, "You're gonna hate Fridays".
Even the cocker detent design is superior to this PTP detent, which is why PTP switched to it in the newest, most modern iteration -- the 6th generation MM 2K9. The proof is in the pudding.**
Honestly, it looks like the kind of big external clunky thing that... I would do. (And have done.)
Except I have no access to manufacturing or design resources.
I'm pretty sure celebrated professionals with full access to production resources should be able to do better. You can't be better but do worse.
It's not actually that terrible, but a blown up wire nubbin isn't exactly revolutionary either.
* This is not actually true.
** This is a logical fallacy. So don't bother providing any counter arguments to this one because I already know it's false. See, I can do it too. Except when I do it, I'm honest about it, and do it purposely in the hopes it is a teachable moment. Not holding my breath.
AO Micromag Guy
Goatboy, let it go. What made you decide you needed to revive this thread? Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or something? Maybe seek "someone" out to talk about all this anger you feel; it can be really helpful or so I'm told. There are some medications available... they might help even you out some.
The PTP detent is almost 25 years old and was designed to compete with wire detentes and foam fingers. It did a better job than those designs - nuff said. At the time when it was released 'cocker detents didn't exist on cockers. "Cocker Detents" from WGP were no detent at all, and when custom shops added threaded detents, they often screwed up the placement which anyone who owned a proshop cocker in the early 90s can tell you. The PTP detent was more forgiving about placement because of how it could be adjusted when installed. This has been discussed to death. It looks clunky? Half of the market looked clunky in the early 90s - I'm not sure I get your point. A couple years earlier the most popular gun on the market was made of brass tubes braised together, and of the two most popular markers out there at the time of the PTP detents release, one barely tolerated co2 (and HPA wasn't around yet) and the other had a "clunky" (to say the least) external recocking cocking system with tiny hoses everywhere.
Yes, they switched to a different design almost 25 years later, 6+ years since the last time they produced a marker, using a design that was created by a non-PTP employee, with a breech system that made screw-ins virtually the only reasonable option. Again, what is your point? Cocker detents were outdated at this time too... Isn't it MUCH more likely that they used this design because the guy who designed the marker used this design? PTPs own design wouldn't fit the rotating breech system, and rubber nubbins would require a retention system which means more parts and more milling - more cost.
The sear argument... c'mon. Can we get a show of hands here? Anyone ever remove their sear when cleaning their markers? Anyone with a classic marker ever find broken paint scuzz between their body and rail? Anyone want a rail with a sear pin you have to use a hammer and punch to remove? For that matter does anyone want a marker that you have to use a hammer and punch to disassemble? I'm sure some people would be OK with that, but most people wouldn't.
I'm thinking of "pulling a GoatBoy" and starting a thread to whine about how much heavier Zenith tube TVs are compared to modern flatscreens. Those huge clunky remotes and some don't even have them, and they take FOREVER to turn on by comparison, and the company screwed everyone over when they sold out to LG. I mean those rabbit ear antennas look like something I'd make in shop class - professional manufacturers should have simply created a fiber optic network the instant that television was created. I made my own TV parts out of plastic using designs that appeal to 1% of 1% of TV watchers and I'm pretty sure that gives me a leg to stand on when arguing about things from the past that I don't understand because I wasn't there.
P.S. to the OP... some of us remember how gung ho you were for the 2K9 and the prospect of a new PTP 'cocker. If the old products (which you owned) are such garbage, why the interest?
Last edited by Frizzle Fry; 03-20-2016 at 02:33 AM.
Hebrews 13:8
It was my "latest" project.
As soon as the next one was completed it was gone.
My "interest" was short, thus the thread.
Stainless Steel 'Mag Lover
So much hate...
Seems spring weather has goatboy out trolling this weekend.
Nobody's Perfect
Not hate, but more of a fascination with something that time has passed by. I personally can understand the historical aspects, but to say that, to me, that something that never really progressed pasted 15 years ago can have real relevance now is wrong.
Yes, the anno guns were special, but i do not see the entire line as special. To me, that is saying a 1968 4 cylinder mustang is as special as Steve McQueen's GT390. Same car but 2 totally different reactions.
lukescustoms.com
FMC didn't put a 4 cylinder in the Mustang until 1974.
Registered User
I see there relavence just like I see AGD and WGP. And Palmer's at the time. 3 of the 4 were literally creating new prototype designs of markers to progress a "new" sport. PTP was spending money and resources designing stuff to make the existing platforms better....at the time. That doesn't mean that looking back they magically had the best design. But rarely does the first prototype design become the final product. Someone has to show that said product is useful and needed. They did that. In turn more started testing ideas. Look how many flavors of air valves there were before the final L7 valve. At the time though there design of detent was probably the best and most reliably functional. And there AL body brought something to mags that people wanted. Did time pass PTP by before the year 2000? Yes. But that doesn't knock there relavence before. People collect all sorts of things. Whatever floats there boat. Me. I only keep and buy what I plan to use. But that's not the mentality of all.
Stainless Steel 'Mag Lover
So...'Mags with X-Valves have no relevance now? Not much difference in Mags now and 15 years ago...
Nobody's Perfect
With an Xvalve, people have yet to hit the theoretical limits of the valves and can easily keep up with todays guns. Its not like people have to make them pneumatic nust to get more life out of them. Time has passed by on PTP and they really need to do more and better, IMO to keep up with even AGD(if the rumor is true).
Tool Weilding Ape
For me PTP is nostalgia. It's finally being able to own those awesome, god-tier, "tournament" guns that you saw hanging on the wall at your local shop when you were still rocking a splatmaster.
I honestly never cared for the micromags, but the red nights Micrococker will be burned into my brain forever.
Stainless Steel 'Mag Lover
Its like chum in the water again...
Someone please lock this thread. I can't read another word about how much my 15-20 yr old PTP 'gun sucks and why my nostalgia and personal preferences are total crap.
Registered User
Are you really saying one barely operating former shell of a company needs to step up their game so they don't get beat by another barely operating former shell of a company?
Nobody's Perfect
Did you read the last line? Plus, there are people out there that are taking TK's work and improving on it. When TK was at Tunaball, he was thoroughly surprised that Lornecash was able to fit the Xmod onto the stock board. Not to mention the various pneumags. But what do i know?
Are you really saying one barely operating former shell of a company needs to step up their game so they don't get beat by another barely operating former shell of a company?
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