PTP Fascination

[blackdeath1k]

7075 is fine for paintball. Just don't expect it to take the place of steel.

[Spider-TW]

7075 is fine for paintball. Just don't expect it to take the place of steel.

It's great once you get it cut, just not a great thing for production.

[JKR]

So if AGD wanted to make a comeback with a new marker it would have to be high end and low production. This is a huge risk. A basement air smith can disappear if something goes wrong. AGD risks losing their reputation, and you can bet this community would pillory AGD if it wasn't perfect. All risk, no reward.

And what reputation is that? Reading half of posts here, you would think that reputation was a company that is living on its laurels, washed up and selling a product no one wants...a mere shell of its once greatness and a waste of time in the modern market.

For a site devoted to AGD, there is certainly a fair share of negativity around here.

Granted the neurotic market that is paintball is a tough place to run a business, but I like to think that there are people out there who still appreciate quality mechanical markers. I don't have sales numbers for the Resurrection but I do believe an AGD 'gun with good features at a decent price could sell and take part of the market that exists. A brand new design is a huge risk and offering a 'gun that is a different combination of existing parts and cheaper, effective parts no longer used but likely still in stock (or at least acquirable) makes sense if you ask me.

[going_home]

What if AGD found a way to do splash anno on their current markers inexpensively (cheap enough to be profitable) ?

Palmer is doing some different anno's on his same products......

[boo]

You can do physical vapor deposition coating on classic mag bodies that would allow for colors and patterns similar to ano. You can PVD both stainless and aluminum and it's gotten pretty durable in the newer generations of the technology. Desert Eagle uses it on a lot of their guns.

But, I don't know that the old way of doing mag bodies is still viable. They were hand welded in house. I'm guessing they went this route as cnc machining was probably more cost prohibitive back then. At this point they would need to be outsourced and hand welding creates a lot of QA issues. Even at a higher cost it would be better to have a company like Lapco do machined aluminum bodies.

Plus there's the whole issue of twist lock barrels. You don't want anything propriety for a smaller company. Even ICD gave up on their barrel threading and gave into cocker threading.

[going_home]

You mean people still use power feed bodies and twist locks?

But seriously, that doesn't apply to what I suggested.

I was talking about Airgun Designs.

They only sell ULE and Tac bodies now they no longer sell power feeds and twist locks.

If they could take their current offerings and offer X amount of custom anno's profitably at a price that would sell, this could cause prospective buyers consider new markers.

With the right advertising of course.

[boo]

And what reputation is that? Reading half of posts here, you would think that reputation was a company that is living on its laurels, washed up and selling a product no one wants...a mere shell of its once greatness and a waste of time in the modern market.

For a site devoted to AGD, there is certainly a fair share of negativity around here.

They have the distinction of being the only paintball company to not have burned people, released **** last ditch products, chased people for shakily broad intellectual property, or sold out to NPS/empire either through force by bankruptcy or by choice. That is a huge distinction in this industry.

They are still turning out Xvalves and other replacement parts for us loyal fans. Paintball players never forgive or forget. So why ruin what they have for something they get no gain out of.

Most of the people here would just make excuses as why they wouldn't buy it when it comes out. Too expensive, doesn't have this setup, not different enough, etc.

I have more contempt for the fanboys then the brand. A lot of them were the same people that were responsible for all the cocker vs. Mag flaming and misinformation and their attitudes persist. Except now its AGD vs. everything else.

[cockerpunk]

They have the distinction of being the only paintball company to not have burned people, released **** last ditch products, chased people for shakily broad intellectual property, or sold out to NPS/empire either through force by bankruptcy or by choice. That is a huge distinction in this industry.

They are still turning out Xvalves and other replacement parts for us loyal fans. Paintball players never forgive or forget. So why ruin what they have for something they get no gain out of.

Most of the people here would just make excuses as why they wouldn't buy it when it comes out. Too expensive, doesn't have this setup, not different enough, etc.

I have more contempt for the fanboys then the brand. A lot of them were the same people that were responsible for all the cocker vs. Mag flaming and misinformation and their attitudes persist. Except now its AGD vs. everything else.

i call them gun apologists.

almost all the classic brands have folks who will defend to the end of the earth the notion that this old, obsolete gun is still the best, and no one has made something better.

but thats not true. modern guns are so perfect they are boring. cheaper, lighter, smaller, more reliable, less kick, even more gentle on paint, better efficiency, simpler built, just as rugged .... i mean thats what 10-20-30 years of development gets you. there are far better guns in every single way than mags, but the fan boys will wtill argue through some contorted, distorted logic that mags are still top of the line.

they don't grasp that the reason folks like to shoot automags is exactly because they are so different than modern guns. thats the reason why they are fun, and interesting, and great guns to play and tinker with. the point is that they don't compete with modern guns, and thats why they are fun.

can you compete with a mag and win? of course
are mags super fun? of course
are there objectively better guns than mags? of course

so what?

people so often get confused between objective reality, and subjective preference. "i choose this because i like it therefore it must be the best objectively" nope, thats not how it works.

[BiNumber3]

I don't think anyone necessarily thinks Mags are unbeatable by current tech, but for the same reason some people love old cars, we happen to love mags. I intend to get an old Corvette Stingray and Datsun 240 some day, as fun cars to tinker with and cruise around with.

Plus, the fact that they have held up so well, and can still compete to an extent, is nothing to scoff at imo.

[boo]

people so often get confused between objective reality, and subjective preference. "i choose this because i like it therefore it must be the best objectively" nope, thats not how it works.

This last line pretty much sums up this thread. People are taking the PTP 2k9 micromag hate and applying it to when PTP had some very successful products years and years ago.

It's some hilarious logic because the 2k9 was such a small niche product numbering in the low hundreds and most of the people hating never even bought one before they found out about the issues.

Paintball fanboys love to *****, especially about stuff they don't own, can't afford (checks bank account, this gun is **** because it costs $xxxx), or that one time a company did something bad when 99% of the time they got it right. They're always the first ones to tell a company what it should make and the last to buy when they make it.

Its the same people arguing why it would make good business sense for AGD to come out with a new niche production marker, then when AGD does they will ***** about it and go out of their way to ruin AGD's reputation.

Add another dimension to that, when some small time airsmith screws up they will defend them til the point they take everyone's money and disappear. And the community will still resell that airsmiths products and worship the stuff with greatness.

Catering to fanboys is enough to make a marketing persons head explode, and companies big and small have all learned to stop doing it.

[going_home]

This last line pretty much sums up this thread. People are taking the PTP 2k9 micromag hate and applying it to when PTP had some very successful products years and years ago.

It's some hilarious logic because the 2k9 was such a small niche product numbering in the low hundreds and most of the people hating never even bought one before they found out about the issues.

Ok for arguments sake I'll give you the 2k9 ridiculousness.

But then they went right to customcockers and made the same mess again with a cocker.

The PTP legacy is summed up by their last two fumbled projects.

They are without a doubt the Smart Parts of the cocker and mag universe.

If we are in disagreement on this, so be it.

[luke]

What happened with the Cockers?

[boo]

They released a pump cocker with questionable ano and an integrated cram n jam that broke.

Both the 2k9 and that cocker tried to be innovative by incorporating a new idea. But at the end of the day with small volume runs you really shouldn't try innovating anything because you can't test and qa it properly.

I think back to the Evo automag body thread when a bunch of people were recommending to change the detents. I don't think people realize how risky it is to change even little details on proven designs. And they definitely don't think of the consequences when you're not a major name player.

This is why you won't see any new designs from smaller players. The closest the industry got was the J4 torque.

I'm not trying to defend or make excuses for PTP, I'm just pointing out a would be lesson for anyone that thinks making custom paintball parts or markers is easy.

[luke]

Both the 2k9 and that cocker tried to be innovative by incorporating a new idea. But at the end of the day with small volume runs you really shouldn't try innovating anything because you can't test and qa it properly.

In regard to the MM2K9, trying to be innovative and incorporating a new idea had nothing to do with what sank that ship.

[BiNumber3]

Yea, overall the design and ideas with the mm2k9 worked, they just made machining errors it sounds like, and assumed aluminum could handle the hammering of the bolt (I read the old threads, and it was recommended by members that the AL could do it, and it was accepted by most it seems, only in hindsight did people realize that there was a good reason AGD used steel).

[going_home]

They released a pump cocker with questionable ano and an integrated cram n jam that broke.

That wasn't the worst, again poor machining, no meat left in the feedneck area, you could see the shaft of the feedneck.
If my memory serves me right.....

[luke]

I think back to the Evo automag body thread when a bunch of people were recommending to change the detents. I don't think people realize how risky it is to change even little details on proven designs.

I completely disagree with this thinking, how exactly is changing detents a risk? Were talking about a doohickey that keeps a paintball from rolling down the barrel. There are many ways to to solve this problem and the engineering behind achieving the goal is not rocket science.

[Nobody]

Plus, with the movable breech of the 2K9, the standard PTP detent wouldn't have worked anyway. It is a poor excuse to blame the masses for failure to do some math on placement of a detent of YOUR PRODUCT. The masses didn't mill the guns, PTP did... Or is that an innovation? You screw up, but blame the people that were buying your products?

[going_home]

I completely disagree with this thinking, how exactly is changing detents a risk? Were talking about a doohickey that keeps a paintball from rolling down the barrel. There are many ways to to solve this problem and the engineering behind achieving the goal is not rocket science.

He's thinking so far outside the box, that you can't find the box any more.

Good job.

[boo]

Hypothetical scenario. The machinist designs new detents in a new body. Everything is to spec, they run a couple hundred balls through, everything checks out and it goes to production.

Owners get the markers, get all the parts, maybe get some custom milling done on the frame to better blend with the body, then dump a couple hundred into an ano complex and unique enough that it is impossible to get anything rematched.

Immediately, after long term use the detents are failing. Maybe pieces are getting ripped out and shooting out the barrel. Maybe they have rollouts because the machinist didn't test enough variation in the paint. But it's determined the machinist's design is flawed. Either by placement or because they are drilled/milled too deep.

So what is the machinist responsible for? The cost of the body or the whole project?

Most of the time this doesn't happen, but PTP is not the only one to screw up a small volume production run.

I'm by no means defending them, they got themselves their reputation because they played fast and loose with the risk, and weren't anywhere near solvent enough to pay to fix it.

[Nobody]

Who designed it, is at fault. They failed to check the numbers. They cailed to check on the first body milled to make sure that it is within spec. The machinist is only responsible for his job. The designer is reaponsible for listening to what possible additions the people BUYING THEM are asking for. It is not the people's fault for wanting something that the deaig er can not do. The deaigner ahould know hos or her own's capabilities in the design. If they don't know how to, then either figure it out or ask someone who has been there before them for help. It is that simple.

But more so, is not PTP's fault at the design. I actually like the looks of the 2K9. It had potential. Even the flawed velocity issues were something not seen before. Yet, how they failed to address the failed bodies, how people did not get reimbursement for bodies undelivered, or how people were promised on having things made right & nothing being done for YEARS. That is the problem.

You want innovation, try promising and delivering on a product. So the past accomplishment does nothing in bringing new people to the fold. No one buys a new car(say a Ford) cause 15 years ago, they did the Ford GT and that was good. No, its called "what jave you done for me lately". That is how you grow, how you stay relevant, how you stay in business. You should never look to the past, when you should be looking to the future.

[boo]

Who designed it, is at fault.

It's obvious who's at fault, but what are they responsible for? Replacing the body, refunding the money, or paying to redo the run correctly and paying for the ano again?

That's the debatable question, because with any of those options there are still going to be unhappy people.

People always ***** about the Empire monopoly, but they have the best customer service in the industry.

That's the difference, and that's why from a business standpoint it doesn't make sense to be a niche manufacturer. You don't have the resources to make it right when something goes wrong. So you either go small, play it safe and just put a new spin on proven designs. Or you go big, do something new, and eventually the gambling catches up with you. You either go into debt making it right or you give up and disappear. Or worse, go double or nothing and burn twice as many people.

Intentions are always good, and I tip my hat to the people that love the sport or the products so much they stick their neck out there. But, when stuff goes wrong I'll probably be among the mob that says "you shoulda known better".

It's business 101, a company should be judged not on what they do right, but when they do something wrong how they fix it. On the 2k9 PTP failed miserably. But over their many years they would of had to have other mistakes that we don't remember anymore. Because in their heyday they had the resources to make it right.

I think your missing the point of what I'm arguing, I'm not defensing PTP, I'm saying companies need to know how much to bite off before they chew.

If anything I respect AGD more because they haven't come out with a new revolutionary design for a new marker. With their current resources it would be a disaster they couldn't fix. They are reputable and business savvy enough to know not to take that jump.

[tucson.az.jbreen]

I have been searching for something better than the kingmann spider elbow. Hope the armson pro is it. Do you know if the agd minimag power feed will do best with 1" or with 7/8ths?

[zondo]

I have been searching for something better than the kingmann spider elbow. Hope the armson pro is it. Do you know if the agd minimag power feed will do best with 1" or with 7/8ths?

I think you want the 7/8" to 1" elbow for automag powerfeeds.

[going_home]

https://www.pythonpaintball.com/

[tucson.az.jbreen]

https://www.pythonpaintball.com/

Hot damn!

Thanks boss.

What do you think of that barrel kit they make?



Edit: could automag bodies be produced of glass fiber? dye uses the technology to make barrels that look insane. they describe it as being similar to making carbon fibre barrels.

[going_home]

Never tried their barrel kit.

XMTerror made some carbon fiber bodies, the breach was still aluminum to house the feedneck and ring/c-clip.

[Walker]

What do you think of that barrel kit they make?

I use one for Cocker and A5 threaded guns. I like it.... TechT markets the same kit...


Walker