Registered User
I missed the rof wars of the late 90's/early 2000's. what I want to know is how did we get to from rounds per minute to balls per second? 20 bps is 1200 rounds per minute the same rate of fire as the MG 42. most submachine guns can't hit that rate of fire much less any paintball marker I have seen. was it just a marketing ploy that stuck or some extra high end math?
Registered User
Hahahaha. Paintball guns have been based off bps as long as I can remember. Mid 90s for sure. As far as the real rof of markers. Idk. The classic RT was tested on some machine with consistent force feed of some sort. Who knows. To me fast is fast. Ha-ha.
Junior Mint
I won't comment on the particulars of switching from RPM to BPS.
But I will comment on the underlying problem.
You guys ready for this?
I have long lamented the fact that it was AGD that published this.
"Accuracy by aiming."
Definitely not on the A-Team.
Hebrews 13:8
Don't get too "pumped" up.
It's more fun shooting lots of paint.
Registered User
Originally Posted by going_home
Don't get too "pumped" up.
It's more fun shooting lots of paint.
I agree but since my first passion has always been things that go boom opposed to pop it just seems wrong.
Splatting since '85
Here we go...
https://youtu.be/ZfnLGD7NXKQ
http://youtu.be/V9sm4q2oNU0
900 rpm
Yes that is me...no...unfortunately those are not mine.
Last edited by wetwrks; 03-31-2016 at 09:10 PM.
Registered User
I've shot an MP5K. I want to shoot a Thompson!
Klauss93
I have also witnessed some speedballers having the most fun playing "civil war" style games...(loading one ball at a time by hand).
Justech.us
Check out this clip at 1:00 to see my Emag in mech mode, with my Ninja SHP set at 1100 psi, using a Qloader. This was my first run with the SHP reg and I had failed to recharge my Emag battery. I dumped nearly an entire Qpod into the metal bunker for effect (not shooting at players), and then dumped my tank to switch it down to 900 psi after that game because it was just way too fast to RT for rec games.I missed the rof wars of the late 90's/early 2000's. what I want to know is how did we get to from rounds per minute to balls per second? 20 bps is 1200 rounds per minute the same rate of fire as the MG 42. most submachine guns can't hit that rate of fire much less any paintball marker I have seen. was it just a marketing ploy that stuck or some extra high end math?
https://youtu.be/djHYkl_UUAM?t=60
Edit: Before I get flamed for that clip, note that I normally play in E-mode, semi-auto, capped at 12bps. If I don't, I tend to run through paint faster than I want to because I can be heavy on the trigger. Then again, I think paintball is fun when there's lots of activity going on. I don't fire every shot with the intention to hit an opponent. Sometimes I want to hit the bunkers for various reasons (sound, paint spray, covering fire, etc.) But that clip is posted simply to show what's realistically possible with the right conditions. The sound file verifies 20bps or slightly more.
Last edited by Justus; 04-01-2016 at 01:12 PM.
Haters Gonna Hate
after the 2k2 timmy and the halo B were made, it was not uncommon to have "legal" guns shooting in the high teens and low 20s. guns had been capable of that speed for a while, but it was the combination of eyes, and force feed being reliable that really unlocked the true speed demons.
also, the irony of automag users frowning on rate of fire .... you do realize the automag being fast was its key selling point for nearly 15 years right? back in the day when folks thought cockers were more accurate it was always autococker for accuracy, automag for speed.
"because every vengeful cop with a lesbian daughter, is having a bad day, and looking for someone to blame"
Registered User
Speed AND reliability. Pre 96. And prob more pre 99. Autocockers were anything but reliable. Sure. If done right and left alone they could be. But more times than not they were a mechanical pain. The autococker is still my all time favorite marker. And I've still never owned one. Automags are just simple to work on. And they just work.
I sure do remember the early days of force feed and the Timmy's though. And the 12 year olds with daddies blank check to burn thru paint.
Registered User
I missed all of that era, I bought my first Mag because the field owner where I played was a Mag man and his reasons were simplicity and reliability over the cocker. I don't remember rate of fire being much of a conversation piece in those days but I did not get to play more than a half dozen times a year.
Registered User
what camera by the way?
Junior Mint
The thing is it's not hard to go fast. That wasn't really an achievement, even in the 90's, because a crappy blowback like a Spyder (or a Spyder with a pneumatic ram instead of a spring, AKA an Intimidator) can already shoot crazy fast. You just need a fast enough loader to feed it. And actually if you really believe in "accuracy by volume", then you don't even care about breaks anyways -- you just spray your way to victory.
My beef is with the whole "best way to score eliminations" bit.
You can't say something like that to paintballers without things getting out of hand very quickly. Which is exactly what happened.
Registered User
I need to get an accurate timer, by my calculations I should be able to dump my 240 rd prophecy in 5 seconds then.
U R techno-literate!
I think bps was mainly from the fact that we started with mechanical semis and pumps. You didn't count for minutes. You qualified your pump rate of trigger pulls in how many you made in one second. 3 to 8 was the rate before RTs and electro's. You were also very lucky to get more than a few seconds of fire without trouble.
Intellifeed and revvy's ran about 11-13. Between the halo and 2k2 timmies, things got pretty busy.
Registered User
You could get 11-13 out of a RT with a Revvie? WOW! I normally did 3 quick shots. 7 max. 9 or more I might as well assume I just turned my mag in to a blender.
Junior Mint
Warpig did the tests a while back:
http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...oaders/lineup/
As you can see there are a lot of incarnations of the Revvy. As far as I'm concerned, the biggest thing you could do for the Revvy was the Intellifeed.
U R techno-literate!
With a good power feed plug. I got an x- valve around 2004, I think. Then you could get 4 to 6 shots at good rates without worrying about the end of the ball stack. Not even a full second of firing. It made me a believer in the improved plugs. With the old plug, my third shot on a level 7 bolt would spew out of the side of the power feed.
The egg we had did better on a continuous basis, but it would trip up eventually.
Justech.us
Contour 1080 - not the Roam, the first incarnation that had firmware allowing 60fps stock.
And dumping a 240 in 5 seconds? 48 bps, really? That sounds too fast.
I know TechPB may be gone by the wayside, but those forums used to have a "Speed King" section where people could post video to verify the fastest they could shoot. Didn't have to be used in a game obviously, but had to be "game ready" so to speak. And yes, the LOADER was always the limiting factor. I have a Qloader to play with and access to 3k psi input, so I always thought about going for one of the records with my Emag in mech mode, but never got around to it.
U R techno-literate!
My team mates in 2006 had timmies and cyborgs with halos. It left me lots of headroom when I started upgrading my automags and I hardly had to worry about going too fast. When common rates were capped at 15 bps, I was able to tune them down. At 12 bps and below, all but the un-modded classic mags are limping along. Kind of sad really (*sniff*). I still have a nice timmy, but it is hardly worth playing with, since my project promaster keeps up just fine in strict limits.
The neat thing was playing two day scenarios and watching the timmies and borgs go down due to paint, eyes, electronics, batteries, lube, etc., while the automags kept churning away. Since being on the field was the main thing, having your marker keep up was an advantage.
Splatting since '85
I suspect that BPM probably started with Tippmann. They originally made real machine guns and rounds per minute was the industry standard and when new MGs were made illegal for civilians Tippmann jumped into paintball...probably bringing the firearm standard with them.
I suspect it changed to bps with the emergence of non-full auto high rates of fire like rt, ramping, and similar burst fire systems.
I can say that there wasn't anything like an announcement about the change...it just kinda gradually happened.
Frontline with tha mag out
There isn't much more satisfying than outting a speedballer with a single shot.. Haha
Stainless Steel 'Mag Lover
Pretty sure it was in direct correlation to the attention span of an average paintball player compared to the "seasoned" firearms guys. Given the neurotic behavior, rampant whoring and trading of markers, and general "ADHD marketing" of the paintball industry, this seconds compared to minutes analogy might have a shred of validity.
Canadian Ice Ref
Well if you want to talk RoF, the Automag Classic RT will outdo the 22 bps. Check the video below. Its a Classic RT with a Q-Loader which holds 100 rounds. Seems to be the only hopper that would have kept up with the crazy valve back then..... From start to finish, it empties the Q-Loader in 3-4 seconds. Kinda hard to tell exactly, but that puts the RoF on that marker at between 25-33 bps if not slightly faster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8OfQVJ7bFo
And just FYI. I do have one of these but I prefer playing normally, without the RT effect. I just love to ramp it up however to silence the younger players that seem to think that BPS is where its at. I actually prefer to play with my pumps these days.
Justech.us
That video is Zak Vetter's 34.5 bps run, pushing the limits of the RT valve. You need to note that he's getting that speed by going direct input from a 3k psi output scuba tank. You're not going to get that kind of speed with your regular paintball compressed air tanks, which have output from 800 to 1200 psi depending on the regulator.
That video is exactly the reason why I thought about recreating the setup for the Speed Kings contest, but never got around to doing it.
Nobody's Perfect
There are ways to go higher for the input psi. I am not talking about presets or ninja regs.
But, what is the point? Sure, you can make it go fast, but for what purpose? TK should put up the old vids of the RT with Manike's Uberloader.
U R techno-literate!
Well, the "recoil" is kind of fun.
Other than that, I would rather extend my reload times. I admit I used to like playing in the 14-16 bps range with short bursts. At decent range you get a great spread that's hard to dance around.
I think it's funny that people dig on automag fans about claiming the automag is still "competitive", while you still have trouble using them in events due to RT rules and lack of electronic caps.
Of course it works-its AGD
Back in the day, most semi-auto paintball guns had very heavy triggers. It was hard to get past 6 pulls per second. The automag came along and made it much easier. Combine the automag with a response trigger, and a stiff 6 pulls per second turned into 12 shots per second fired. That was insane back then. Most valves couldn't use an autoresponse type trigger, because their valve mechanisms couldn't keep up.
The electronic guns changed the trigger issue and made a stiff trigger pull a thing of the past, but most valves still couldn't keep up to the rate of fire at first. The development of valves that could shoot fast changed everything. With no mechanical limitations on the gun, the only limit was how fast you could pull the trigger, and how fast the loader could put the balls in, and many started circumventing the semi-auto rules by using trigger switch bounce and then ramping to artificially fire the guns faster than you could pull the trigger. Now it became a rate of fire war, because most high end guns could achieve rates of fire that weren't safe to use in games. It was all bragging rights.
The original high end markers were hampered by gravity fed hoppers. A gravity fed hopper can't drop balls faster than 14 bps into the chamber, and they can't feed the balls into the stack fast enough from a dead stop using just agitation. The agitation issue is why many early guns had tall feed tubes. You queued up about 6 balls that you could shoot until the loader could get things rolling. The intellifeed helped, because it got the agitator started on the shot instead of waiting for all the balls in the stack to move. Force fed hoppers weren't allowed in the early years. It took a few years of high end guns chewing up paint and much lobbying to get that rule changed.
I do still find it funny that you can carry a full ramping uncapped electronic marker onto a field and no one bats an eye, but they have concerns over a retro-valved mag shooting too fast.
I remember playing a tournament a long time ago. One of the guys on one of the other teams was using a gun borrowed from his team-mate who played on the All Americans. His team mate wasn't playing in this tournament. The gun could rip over 20bps on ramping. This was before they put caps on ramping. The sponsor of the team who I knew quite well was laughing and pointing out how fast this gun was. I had just gotten my Predator Angel, so I lifted the rof cap when we played their team. After the game, the refs came over to our team and told me I had to turn down my gun because the sponsored team complained that it was too fast. LOL. I did, but I proved a point, and I shut everyone up about this super fast gun. They weren't having as much fun once other teams had the same amount of over powered firepower.
Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.
Justech.us
That's it for me. I have no desire to shoot as fast as I can in a game. But sometimes I do want to test the limits of what my equipment can do, just for fun and talk. It's akin to finding where the governor is on a new car... but not always wanting or intending on driving 113 mph every day.Now it became a rate of fire war, because most high end guns could achieve rates of fire that weren't safe to use in games. It was all bragging rights.
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