Lvl 10 and inconsistent velocity

[themagballer]

Hi guys,

I setup a Lvl 10 kit in my classic valve and tuned it but could not get the velocity to settle down any smaller than a 20 FPS window both above and below 285 FPS over the course of shooting around 4 cases of paint. My question is how much could the Lvl 10 kit be causing the erratic velocity (carrier was setup with the biggest oring that wouldn't leak) or is it the reg seat only that's causing the problem. I like the Lvl 10 but I like my Lvl 7 setup better due to the dead on every time velocity.
Any ideas from you guys as to how I can get the kit to shoot better would be great.

[fhawkeye]

which spring are you using in the level 10 out of curiosity?

[themagballer]

I've used all 3 but the Lvl 7 gold spring is my preferred setup if the paint will handle it.

[Tunaman]

Hi guys,

I setup a Lvl 10 kit in my classic valve and tuned it but could not get the velocity to settle down any smaller than a 20 FPS window both above and below 285 FPS over the course of shooting around 4 cases of paint. My question is how much could the Lvl 10 kit be causing the erratic velocity (carrier was setup with the biggest oring that wouldn't leak) or is it the reg seat only that's causing the problem. I like the Lvl 10 but I like my Lvl 7 setup better due to the dead on every time velocity.
Any ideas from you guys as to how I can get the kit to shoot better would be great.

I would try changing the reg seat, put a drop of oil on it before closing it up, and dont take it apart there until it needs servicing down the road. Theoretically you should not loosen the halves once a new reg seat is in there as it may not seat back in the exact same place.

[themagballer]

Hi Tunaman, I have some reg seats on the way as well as some autolube. So am I assuming correctly that my classic valve should be able to shoot just as consistently with the Lvl 10 as it does with the Lvl 7?

[Tunaman]

Hi Tunaman, I have some reg seats on the way as well as some autolube. So am I assuming correctly that my classic valve should be able to shoot just as consistently with the Lvl 10 as it does with the Lvl 7?

yes

[Nobody]

Yes, the L10 won't chqnge the consistency unless you are about to chop a ball and you get that chuff shot. That means the L10 kit is working and prevented a chopped ball.

[themagballer]

Thank you to all who responded, after I get reg seats in ill get my Lvl 10 re-setup.

[BiNumber3]

Would lower tank output affect it? like if the tank's output is under 800psi?

[athomas]

Yes, low tank pressure will affect the operation. If your tank gauge is reading under 800psi, it may actually be less than that. The level 10 higher operating pressure means there isn't much pressure difference between the tank pressure and the front chamber pressure. There are two regulators between the tank pressure and the chamber, and each needs some pressure difference to react properly. A slow flow will affect the regulator's ability to regulate properly and could cause the mag valve regulator to stop at slightly different pressures each time.

[themagballer]

Hi guys, just adding to this. My issue with the inconsistent velocity was happening all the way through a tank fill on a 68-4500 HPA tank. Now if the tank reg was acting screwy.....I don't know. Ill post up after I get my new reg seat in and re-setup my Lvl 10 to let everyone know what the outcome was.

[athomas]

If it was acting up from a full tank down to an empty tank, then I would rule out that it is caused by a low tank. You should always do troubleshooting on a tank with a fill pressure that is known to be at least 200psi above the regulated output pressure of the tank regulator for every shot.

That means you are definitely back to the original diagnosis of a bad regulator seat or other oring issue.

[Cyco-Dude]

Hi guys, just adding to this. My issue with the inconsistent velocity was happening all the way through a tank fill on a 68-4500 HPA tank. Now if the tank reg was acting screwy.....I don't know. Ill post up after I get my new reg seat in and re-setup my Lvl 10 to let everyone know what the outcome was.

well, the easy thing to do then would be to test it again using a different tank. if it is the tank reg, it means it is time to rebuild it. that issue seems consistent with my experience with a tank reg, just before the lp burst disk blew.

[captian pinky]

my guess is going to be reg piston.

[Spider-TW]

my guess is going to be reg piston.

They do get sticky sometimes. Has no one said "shoot some oil through it" yet?

[themagballer]

Right now my solution is putting a new reg seat in it and going from there. Sandman has already shipped my stuff so when it gets here ill go out to my local field and retune my mag and repost here afterwards when I get done to let everyone know the results.

[themagballer]

Ok guys, posting back up after playing and my mag was still doing the same things, inconsistent from shot to shot. I started the day with the level 10 bolt, level 10 reg piston, red spring, classic on\off, new reg seat installed flared end torwards the reg piston, underbore barrel, new RT-ULE rail\sear\bushing. Cronoed the mag and it started shooting at 258 FPS (red spring looks ideal). Carrier O-ring leaked for about 30 seconds then sealed up but the velocity was again all over the place. I changed to an overbore and the velocity tightened up some but was still +\- 12-15 FPS. I switched back to the level 7 bolt to concentrate on getting my mag shooting right. (better to tune 1 thing at a time than 2). I did notice a scuff on the side of the level 7 reg piston but didn't look inside the reg bore to see if the bore was scuffed. The reg seat is the only seal i've replaced. how much of a difference would the old O-rings in the rest of the valve play a role in the up and down velocity and would or could the reg spring pack be worn out and causing the reg to be inconsistent?

[cockerpunk]

what kind of underbored barrel?

i found with some barrels when underboring on twist lock guns, that the bolt tip would enter the undebored section and that sticking, would cause eradic velocity. never observed that with the cocker threaded bodies.

if not that, or an issue with the regulator, look at over oiling. some say you can't over oil a mag, but oil in the barrel from being fired through the whole gun, can really mess with both accuracy and consistency.

[themagballer]

Hi Gordon, nice to talk to you. The barrel I was using at the start of the day was a 682 Kaner back with a Autococker SR front, went to a 687 Kaner back (both backs gloss polished, paint just rolled right through that one). I did try oiling my mag but with the barrel off and dry fired it till the oil mist was gone then cleaned out the breech on the mainbody.

[athomas]

If you are using a level 10 bolt, you need to use a barrel that is at least 0.685" id. If the barrel is twistlock, the inner diameter may need to be bigger if the barrel isn't 100% centered due to a loose fitting barrel or a twist lock assembly that is pushing it off center.

[themagballer]

Hi athomas, my mag has a ULE body and i'm using threaded barrels.

[athomas]

You should be able to use a barrel id down to 0.685", but not smaller. The tip of the bolt can rub on the barrel and cause erratic velocity and sticking if you use a smaller barrel id.

[themagballer]

Ok, only problem is it was still giving me problems with a .687 back. Athomas do you think the spring pack\reg pin spring\reg pin could be giving me any issues?

[vintage]

was it still inconsistent after you switched back to the level 7 bolt?

[themagballer]

Vintage, it was. The only reason I switched back to the level 7 was so if the level 10 started giving me issues during the day I wasn't trying to fix 2 problems at the same time. I wanted to get the valve shooting the way it should before I reinstall the level 10 and tune that.

[athomas]

It is rarely an issue caused by the spring pack or the reg pin. It can happen if the orings are stiff or if there is grit, but with new orings or ones in good condition, those parts rarely cause issues.

What is the condition of the paint?

[cockerpunk]

You should be able to use a barrel id down to 0.685", but not smaller. The tip of the bolt can rub on the barrel and cause erratic velocity and sticking if you use a smaller barrel id.

i've used smaller than that with the level 10 and the ULE body with cocker threads, never had an issue. if anything that was the single most consistent setup i have ever seen over a chrono, something like a literal +/-2 fps over 22 shots. not standard deviation of 2, a total range of +/- 2. setup was an X valve, ULE body, .004-.005 smaller than blow test barrel. fantastically consistent and efficient too.

[cockerpunk]

Vintage, it was. The only reason I switched back to the level 7 was so if the level 10 started giving me issues during the day I wasn't trying to fix 2 problems at the same time. I wanted to get the valve shooting the way it should before I reinstall the level 10 and tune that.

seems to point to it being a regulator issue.

[themagballer]

Hi athomas, paint was fresh Empire Marbilizer

Hi Gordon, I followed up on what athomas said about the bolt contacting the breech end of the barrel so I inserted the level 10 bolt minus the bolt spring into the ule body and the tip of the bolt just barley touched the barrel so I don't think it's going to be an issue.

Gordon, that Xvalve setup you had, did you run a rt on\off or a ult?

From this point forward ill completely rebuild the valve with a fresh oring kit and repost my results after testing.

[athomas]

Hi Gordon, I followed up on what athomas said about the bolt contacting the breech end of the barrel so I inserted the level 10 bolt minus the bolt spring into the ule body and the tip of the bolt just barley touched the barrel so I don't think it's going to be an issue.

The spring will take up some of the distance as well, so you should be fine.

Just because paint is fresh doesn't mean its good. Is it round and all the same size? Most likely it is fine, but it is something to check.

Fresh orings usually solve most issues.

Cockerpunk: I was wondering how far the bolt penetrated into the barrel. I never really checked the distance. I just knew it was too large at the outer diameter of the bolt itself. Its good to know that the distance is fine and it won't be and issue.