Where did AGD go wrong?

[Nobody]

That is a loaded statement, but so where, no what caused AGD to loose marketshare or the masses. As we all know, a well tuned L10 will not chop paint unless the paint is horrible. In the speed game, the RT and subsequent ReTro/Emag/Xvalave all can achieve that same level of performance. So that is not a problem in comparison to other comparable guns of the era.

If you look at the history from the start of AGD to about 2000, basically after wide acceptance of electros on the top levels of professional play and then filtering down to the everyday players, AGD really began to loose people, loose marketshare and loose out on nearly everything. Yet by 2000, you had AGD mags not chopping paint, an electro versions and maybe other innovations that we all know. Yet, there was a decline in use and visibility. Yes, a lot of that has to do with the fickle nature of paintballers and the disposable cash era, which some companies were issuing guns/models every 2-3 years.

So i really want to know what the community thinks. I have my own ideas, but i do need more sources than myself. This is also not an admonishing of AGD, more so trying figure out the point where it happened. So please, indulge me in this. I do want to see what everyone thinks.

[Fred]

AGD never loosed anyone. Lost maybe.

Personally, I think it's because there was ZERO marketing hype. There was a stigma when I started playing that somehow AutoCockers shot farther than AutoMags... That was 1999.

Aside from the stray body change, Classic to Minimag, the evolution to the Classic RT body, and then finally to aluminum and the slugs in the mid aughts, the design never got sexy. Just a tube, that worked.

Still haven't seen anyone do a re-skinned valve that isn't a tube.

[alpha_q_up23]

Don't forget being banned in tournament play due to not being able to cap the rt, plus I don't think companies who make new electronic markers every year would like to see a team of 20 year old mags out shoot their newest marker

[Warwitch]

When you make stuff to last and dont care about candy coating your image this is what you get. A loyal following of die-hard fans. AGD didnt 'go wrong'.

[BigEvil]

[going_home]

The point where it went from incline to decline was with the c&d from smart parts.

The moustache behind the innovation lost interest when the deck became stacked.

That's not to say innovation couldn't start back up again.

What Tim is doing is a great start.

[JKR]

AGD didn't sell out, basically. In an era of rushing to the lowest common denominator with cheap electros made in China, AGD continued on its path of making quality, American made markers. The single greatest thing that killed AGD's electro and high end development was Smart Parts. The resulting lack of high-end markers from AGD undoubtedly took some wind out of the sails of the entire company so they fell back, regrouped and marketed to a niche that other manufacturers tended to run from.

Although the industry is in regression as far as sales go, I believe there is a strong and growing interest in quality paintguns. This obviously works to AGD's favor. Combined with a more aggressive marketing and sales campaign, I see AGD remaining viable and strong for a small, niche manufacturer for a long time to come.

[BigEvil]

Ive seen two things,

#1 - they move from steel to aluminum was too slow

#2 - Dealers abandoned them right around that time for reasons unknown to me.

[blackdeath1k]

Marketing,
Weight,
Tournament banning,
MARKETING!!!!!

And now expense plays a factor.

Back in the day before electros you had the mag and cocker. Mag was reliable but boring. Cocker was cool but finicky. I've owned a mag since 94ish. By 99 the mag was basically forgotten by the masses. Electros had taken over along with the cool back block of an autococker still being around. Mags have no gimmick. And basically no marketing.

I've recently bought 2 geo3s. One for me and one for my wife. Weight was the factor. I still own my classic RT hat I've had forever. But the weight finally got to me. My shoulder is junk. I started pricing what it would cost for a ule mag with xvalve. Compared that to a used geo3. The Geo made more sence since they were basically the same price point and from what I would tell the Geo is still lighter. The wife's Geo was purchased after playing a scenario game with her mag. Weight got to her and she finally decided something lighter would add to her enjoyment. Btw I do not use ramping at all. I still sit with the same 7-10 bps on my Geo that I ran on my mag.

I will say the Geo's have no soul. They are just function. Whereas mags have character. But when weighing my options I felt the Geo was the smarter buy. Only time will tell

[wetwrks]

Ive seen two things,

#1 - they move from steel to aluminum was too slow

#2 - Dealers abandoned them right around that time for reasons unknown to me.

My understanding was they quit licensing and selling thru dealers. That they thought they could do all the sales thru their store alone. That the few dealers (Tuna) were the remaining of the ones who had permission to sell their products and that no more were being added. I may be mistaken in that information but that is what I have heard for years. Frankly I would like to hear otherwise.

[dahoeb]

1) The design was too good. Theres not a lot that can be changed to make real meaningful improvements to the design. Most modern guns have plenty of room for some little tweaks and new milling here and there so they can market new changes and "improvements". Ofc if the e-mag was still being made, thatd open all kinds of options and possibilities for evolution.

2) Smarts parts.

3) many current paintballers are fickle with their fads and preferences changing almost seasonally.

[BLachance75]

Smart Parts and the tourney ban is what I think were the big problems. I think that innovation stopping after Tom left was the final nail. With nothing new and fancy coming out people lost interest.

[Spider-TW]

Not everyone appreciates quality. There was a large chunk of market that AGD was never going to get with that.

[Patron God of Pirates]

No longer being carried in stores hurt real bad. I remember X-Fire in Nashua pushing hard to sell me an RTP. A few months later they didn't carry them anymore and the same guy was telling me how bad they sucked. The stores sell what they have for sale and like it or not, even in the internet age, most peoples first advice on what to buy comes from a guy behind a counter or a kid on the field. Neither have Mags. Go into those stores now and they are pushing Mil-Sim garbage with all kinds of non-functioning accessories.

[pillage]

Changes in how the the paintball marketing was done pushed the Mag out of the limelight. Back in the the hey day of the Mag versus Cocker battle for paintball supremacy, there were virtually no kids playing paintball. It was pretty much an adult only activity. Those same adults had their own disposable income to spend on their fun and games. Once paintball became an equipment based baby sitting service funded by mom and dads credit cards, the cheap, light, and disposable gun became vogue. Enter the age of mass produced disposables like the Ion which flooded the market at the time ,and pushed the heavy old reliable guns out of the limelight. This in turn made the dinosaurs of paintball fall even further out of favor. The over production of the disposable gun, and the economic bubble combined to kill off lots of paintball businesses, which is where we are today. The irony of this situation is not lost on those of us that still have the AGD dinosaurs, as the disposables got chucked in the trash, while o-rings and oil continues to let us play with our toys even after spending years in a closet collecting dust.

[Dayspring]

The other thing that hurt AGD was their military contracts. Tom had to make a decision and I bet it came down to finances (as it should when you're a business owner). Smart Parts didn't help, but the development of the FN303 and what ever other military stuff Tom had going on diverted attention from paintball.

[AGDRetro]

I think the idea of weight being an issue is almost funny after 2003 when the ULE debuted. The problem there is that without a lot of marketing to advertise the new lightweight Mags, I think to many they retained their reputation as a "heavy" gun. A decent ULE X-Valve'd Mag is still pretty light by today's standards. Just a shame that they cannot be 100% controlled for capped tournament use. Still... probably one of the finest recball markers😁

[skipdogg]

Many small issues caused it. Most of which are mentioned above. Overall I'd just say,
Everything has a life cycle. AGD went thru that just like every other company does or will. If anything, I would say we are all lucky AGD didn't and hasn't closed shop. Most companies in their shoes would have done so years ago.

[ghost flanker]

Early on (1990-1996ish), the biggest problems were;
- BALL CHOPS: this horrible reputation followed AGD around like a black cloud for years, even after the problem was finally resolved in 2002, over a decade later. Just imagine if the level 10 bolt had been introduced in the mid 90s before AGD's popularity began to decline.
- MALFUNCTIONS FROM CO2: was either partially solved by expansion chambers and anti-siphon tanks, or completely resolved by compressed air, which was an expensive and sparsely available solution at the time for an already expensive gun, especially with non-tournament players.

1997 onwards, the biggest problems (aside from ball chop) were;
- WEIGHT: even the weight savings from ULE (when it finally became available) couldn't counterbalance the heavy Emag/Xmag batteries enough for these guns to be widely accepted by players over competing brands for tournament use. AGD also dropped the ball by neglecting to ULE other parts of their guns besides just the body and valve. Case in point, the massive solid aluminum brick we refer to as the RT Pro rail was completely unnecessary.
- SHART FARTS: aka greedy backstabbers and ruiners of the industry...I'm not bitter at all
- POOR AIR EFFICIENCY: this was never improved upon by AGD in any new, updated models.
- TOO MUCH EXTERNAL AIR LINE: never improved upon by AGD in any new, updated models, either.
- POWERFEED: AGD was late to the party in developing low-profile vertical feed bodies.
- SIMPLISTIC STYLING: the slick looking Xmag arrived too late before SP killed it.

[keiko_819]

They went wrong making a marker that's quality is unsurpassed, yea their are space guns that will shoot faster and be more efficient...I personally don't care, Ive shot most high end electros/pumps and still feel my mags have a tighter grouping. Ive been lucky enough to make it to some old schoolers games and most the times, the veteran ballers think I'm shooting a ccm or bob long, when i explain and show them its a mag they are cought off guard. Even made it to a couple AO games and it seemed like there were only a select group that shot our mags all day. In fact i was kind of disappointed when i started seeing the battery powered machines come out...yeah they could use some more marketing but I feel its up to us to keep using those old classic dinasours and new ule builds...make those snapshots cound and land those impossible shots to make the opponent wonder what he/she got taken out with...that will spread the virus that we have as mag shooters. show them that quality still shoots strait...

[capt spank]

I don't think agd necessarily "went wrong". It's a top of the line mechanical marker. But let's compare it to let's say an axe. The axe is smoother, quieter, lighter, more efficient, just as easy maintenance, just as good reliability. Some paint I can't shoot in my mags. Never had an issue with my axe with even the crappiest paint.

Imo, aesthetics is a significant downside. The bodies/rails that the awesome people in this community produce are sexy as hell. The ule tube, meh.

[going_home]

I don't think agd necessarily "went wrong". It's a top of the line mechanical marker. But let's compare it to let's say an axe. The axe is smoother, quieter, lighter, more efficient, just as easy maintenance, just as good reliability. Some paint I can't shoot in my mags. Never had an issue with my axe with even the crappiest paint.

Imo, aesthetics is a significant downside. The bodies/rails that the awesome people in this community produce are sexy as hell. The ule tube, meh.

One reason the 1st Gen Axe is my go to electronic marker, although I do have an IR3.

I'm stopping at 3 of them.

I'm all A's , Automags, Axes, and Angel's.

[boddah]

What was the deal with smart parts?


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[Dark Side]

Not enough marketing. Now with that being said, Paintball Charleston is the last place I knew of that actually sold and promoted Mags but it has been two years since I was in the area.

[Dayspring]

What was the deal with smart parts?


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Through some wheeling and dealing, SP came into possession of a patent that covered the electronic firing of a paintball gun. They also used some shady dealings to expand the definition beyond the actual drawings to cover ALL electronic modes of firing the gun. At that point, they started enforcing the patent - cease and desist or pay a license fee per gun. Some places stopped making electronic guns, some paid the fees. Others (National Paintball/Empire & Dye) from what I hear didn't have to pay at all - partially due to National's "300 lb gorilla" distribution status (no reason to piss that off) and Dye having prior art on the spool valve that Smart Parts was using for their shocker (Dye could have sued them for infringement).

The last 2 items are, admittedly, hearsay - but they came from reliable sources.

[boddah]

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to piece together all the history since I've been out of the game. So who owns SP?


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[Dayspring]

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to piece together all the history since I've been out of the game. So who owns SP?


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Well, SP doesn't exist as it used to. Kee Action Sports (Empire, etc.) bought the patents when Smart Parts went bankrupt. Interestingly enough, the patent is now public domain.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...033&highlight=

[vintage]

[going_home]

[cockerpunk]

i think it was a poor decision to try and make a stand alone E-trigger for an automag, and preserve the backwards compatibility. the direct acting noid, and thus massive battery needed to power it ... it might have been fine for a late 1990's electro, but by even the year 2000, it was outdated. a wiser course of action would have been to totally revamp the automag valve, ditch backwards compatibility and make a true electro-pnumatic triggered blowforward gun, with eyes. such a gun was probably in the works, but the above "we have capital to do one thing, defend ourselves from SP, or make a new gun" dichotomy got in the way.