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Thread: If AGD Wanted To Go Electronic ?

  1. #1
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    If AGD Wanted To Go Electronic ?

    If Airgun Designs wanted to go further than being the best brand new mechanical marker on the planet available.....

    Would they just offer a bolt on electronic frame ?

    Or would it take a complete redesign ?

    From a sales standpoint I'm thinking redesign, but R&D means more $ and employees yadda yadda, lots of $ .

    A bolt on electronic frame would be an interesting addition but how would it do from a sales standpoint is a good question.

    What say you ?

  2. #2
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    can we say Centerflag ??

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    centerflag closed shop a few years ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by d4m4don3 View Post
    centerflag closed shop a few years ago
    I know that ,, I was sayin the CF frame worked

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by maniacmechanic View Post
    I know that ,, I was sayin the CF frame worked
    It worked, but not well. It was a massive step forward but yet still had some problems.

    I see more of a Egomag bolt on frame. Drop in kit with everything you would need. Of course, not using an ego frame, but a new frame that could incorporate those ideas that people have done before with them.

  6. #6
    I think their best option would be to build an electro pneumatic frame. Build the lpr into the asa and have a fitting out to feed the valve. Clapper noids tend to make the frames really thick, require bulky capacitors, and they aren't as easy to source as a 3-way solenoid. The trilogy solenoid is about perfect when it comes to design of a push valve and noid built into one small unit. Have it fed by the lpr asa in a comfortable frame and you woukd have it made. I have built ego pneumag with this setup and it worked ok, but a purpose built frame that could be attached and played with would be great. If we want to truly bring the mag into current play, you would be looking at something like the tippmann crossover. Granted it could be done with better looks and design, it would essentially be the same gun.

  7. #7
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    If the pnue frames could somehow be capped (ROF) electronically it would be a nice option, otherwise it's a no go for tournaments.

    And then there's the Mexican standoff on the pnue patents between DW and PTP, I seriously doubt AGD will want to go that route.

  8. #8
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    Was the Automag the first spool valve marker?
    Last of the Salzburg Clan

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Was the Automag the first spool valve marker?
    Automag isn't a spool.

  10. #10
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    I've always used zdspb.com for marker classifications. Please help me understand how it is not a type (blow forward) of spool valve. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by going_home View Post
    If the pnue frames could somehow be capped (ROF) electronically it would be a nice option, otherwise it's a no go for tournaments.

    And then there's the Mexican standoff on the pnue patents between DW and PTP, I seriously doubt AGD will want to go that route.
    This would have to be researched... because the electro patent has expired.. and those patents were either before or shortly after the electro one so they might be coming to the end of their lifespan.

    It's a big giant mistake to try to market anything to the 'tournament' scene. Look how great it's been working out for the last 10 years.

  12. #12
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    The op is not quite strait forward. Are you asking what agd would have to do to be back in the position they were in during the early 90s as one of the top markers being sold for tournament/high end usage?

    Or what would give them an angle to work with for starting new market share in today's world?

    Answer to the first question would most likely take a full marker redesign. And marketing. It might not take function concept redesign. But it would take layout redesign.

    Answer to just leaping forward in the electro market could be easilly done with a reliable light weight electro frame like a hyper frame. Or a bolt on pneu frame. Sadly do to already existing marker costs these options would not move agd as far as the hard core in enthusiast would like. This would put the marker in the price range of a new LUX or CS1. I just don't see them holding there own in that price point of new with a current marker + electro trigger frame.

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    new electronic frame emag style, but you could get away with a tiny pull solenoid if used with a ULT have this on the back burner on one of my projects
    also the option of a drop in valve replacement, but it would have to avoid current patents

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    The unknowns, of course, are how much R & D was done on other designs and advancements before the SP disaster stopped the Emag in its track and then sales began their decline. Existing technology is very good and cheap with the proliferation of manufacturing in China and other Asian nations. This obviously makes getting into the market that much harder. Couple that with the fact that paintballers seemingly don't care as much about quality now as they used to (changing demographics and player attrition) and it puts AGD in a tough position to get back into the electro market.

    My strategy would be to re-release the Emag with a different body, perhaps the Tac One body, and work on lightening the battery pack. Given improved battery technology, I would think this possible. Perhaps turning the battery pack parallel to the barrel and enclosing it into a milled receiver that was "mil-simy" and had lots of mounting options for the users to compliment the Tac One body. Keep the ability to shoot mechanical and electro...always good to have options.

  15. #15
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    LIthium cell technology would greatly reduce the size and weight of the battery pack. You could also install a sear that has a greatly reduced weight. This would allow you to use the ULT or similar on-off and a smaller solenoid. The smaller solenoid would also contribute to a greatly reduced battery size/capacity requirement. I think you could make a very robust new emag design using the current valve.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  16. #16
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    ^^^This^^^

    Keep backwards compatibility. Keep modularity/customization. We don't need another NEW marker that's simply a different arrangement of o-rings to produce the same result.

  17. #17
    I cant help but think of the axe when i envision a refined electro mag every time I play with it. The quality isnt there but I wonder if that wasnt the direction it would have went if the SP fiasco didnt happen

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by renie View Post
    new electronic frame emag style, but you could get away with a tiny pull solenoid if used with a ULT have this on the back burner on one of my projects
    also the option of a drop in valve replacement, but it would have to avoid current patents
    The ULT has been very unreliable in being able to return the sear and reset a solenoid plunger in just about any electro or Pneumatic application in my experience. I have stopped recommending them for use in anything other than mechanical guns.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigevil View Post
    the ult has been very unreliable in being able to return the sear and reset a solenoid plunger in just about any electro or pneumatic application in my experience. I have stopped recommending them for use in anything other than mechanical guns.
    qft!
    ......You know you want one!!

  20. #20
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    Agreed the ULT can be tricky to setup
    Maybe a new on/off something in between that an an RT on/off?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by renie View Post
    new electronic frame emag style, but you could get away with a tiny pull solenoid if used with a ULT have this on the back burner on one of my projects
    also the option of a drop in valve replacement, but it would have to avoid current patents
    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
    The ULT has been very unreliable in being able to return the sear and reset a solenoid plunger in just about any electro or Pneumatic application in my experience. I have stopped recommending them for use in anything other than mechanical guns.
    I think I have something for that. I have to wring it out next month at the big game. I got some extra ULT pins from Tuna and have been tinkering. Menace would like it. I'm thinking it would help a devilmag arrangement, but I'm not sure about the wear life.

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    I have both Menace's and Pnuemager's On/off pin. Probably the way to go... but more testing needs to be done. Dan says there is some inherent flaw to the design...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
    I have both Menace's and Pnuemager's On/off pin. Probably the way to go... but more testing needs to be done. Dan says there is some inherent flaw to the design...
    I think those need a setup like the lvl10 bolt o-ring with sizers, they are very sensitive to fit and wear. Now that I say it, I might be able to do that. Like a combo of ULT and Lvl10 parts (a bit ugly tho). There's a home for those lvl10 sizers we never use.

    The latest experiment is mostly a ULT in a classic valve. If it will reset reliably there, it should be good in a solenoid driven x-valve. If not, I'll have another trial of stuff to mark off the list. It seems to work well at home, but you know how that goes. I'm aiming for 6 bps on one finger, but I think shoot-down will not be far off of that. The reset is the goal though.
    Last edited by Spider-TW; 10-25-2016 at 08:42 AM.

  24. #24
    The biggest issue in this entire discussion is money. Creating any part in any quantity is a daunting task in a market where a high number of sales is 25 units. Look at the thread sales of Cougar and Xmagterror when they sell bodies or frames and they struggle for weeks to get to 25 units. The market place is much smaller than most mag enthusiasts believe. The number of customers with available cash to buy is below the threshold of any serious investor.

    That being said it takes small manufacturers like Luke to drive these types of products. Luke has been trying to source parts for an electro style frame for some time. I believe he is still unable to source what he needs at a price that works.

    The cheapest approach is certainly the HyperFrame style. But like BE says, the ULT is unreliable and the stock on/off requires too much energy, thus the massive battery on E-mags. No one is going to invest in producing a battery intensive gun like the E-mag or X-mag again.
    The low pressure approach is the best performance but is undoubtedly the most expensive approach. Adding an LPR is costly and then finding a reasonable way to mount and gas it is costly too.

    All these idea's have been done in one way shape or form in a custom manner. Tuna, and BE have been leading those designs. The issue again is cost. Those frames sell in the secondary market for $400 to $500.

    An E- Frame is something that is in on the table with AGD. But there are several major issues with either set-up. We will continue to work with the community designers and try and find a cost effective reasonable solution that will work the best.

    Thanks to the people like Luke, BE, Cougar and Tuna maybe there will be a solution.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    That being said it takes small manufacturers like Luke to drive these types of products. Luke has been trying to source parts for an electro style frame for some time. I believe he is still unable to source what he needs at a price that works.
    As of last week that was all sorted out.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    The biggest issue in this entire discussion is money. Creating any part in any quantity is a daunting task in a market where a high number of sales is 25 units. Look at the thread sales of Cougar and Xmagterror when they sell bodies or frames and they struggle for weeks to get to 25 units. The market place is much smaller than most mag enthusiasts believe. The number of customers with available cash to buy is below the threshold of any serious investor.

    That being said it takes small manufacturers like Luke to drive these types of products. Luke has been trying to source parts for an electro style frame for some time. I believe he is still unable to source what he needs at a price that works.

    The cheapest approach is certainly the HyperFrame style. But like BE says, the ULT is unreliable and the stock on/off requires too much energy, thus the massive battery on E-mags. No one is going to invest in producing a battery intensive gun like the E-mag or X-mag again.
    The low pressure approach is the best performance but is undoubtedly the most expensive approach. Adding an LPR is costly and then finding a reasonable way to mount and gas it is costly too.

    All these idea's have been done in one way shape or form in a custom manner. Tuna, and BE have been leading those designs. The issue again is cost. Those frames sell in the secondary market for $400 to $500.

    An E- Frame is something that is in on the table with AGD. But there are several major issues with either set-up. We will continue to work with the community designers and try and find a cost effective reasonable solution that will work the best.

    Thanks to the people like Luke, BE, Cougar and Tuna maybe there will be a solution.
    Actually.. the Emag on/off doesn't need as much power as you might think. I have them in all of my hyperframe guns. And while it does eat 9v batteries pretty fast, a replacement 9v is still much cheaper than the emag battery... as a matter of fact I have been toying with the idea of setting up a standard emag lowers to run on a 9v just for giggles. (Maybe one day I will get around to it too )

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    The biggest issue in this entire discussion is money. Creating any part in any quantity is a daunting task in a market where a high number of sales is 25 units. Look at the thread sales of Cougar and Xmagterror when they sell bodies or frames and they struggle for weeks to get to 25 units. The market place is much smaller than most mag enthusiasts believe. The number of customers with available cash to buy is below the threshold of any serious investor.

    That being said it takes small manufacturers like Luke to drive these types of products. Luke has been trying to source parts for an electro style frame for some time. I believe he is still unable to source what he needs at a price that works.

    The cheapest approach is certainly the HyperFrame style. But like BE says, the ULT is unreliable and the stock on/off requires too much energy, thus the massive battery on E-mags. No one is going to invest in producing a battery intensive gun like the E-mag or X-mag again.
    The low pressure approach is the best performance but is undoubtedly the most expensive approach. Adding an LPR is costly and then finding a reasonable way to mount and gas it is costly too.

    All these idea's have been done in one way shape or form in a custom manner. Tuna, and BE have been leading those designs. The issue again is cost. Those frames sell in the secondary market for $400 to $500.

    An E- Frame is something that is in on the table with AGD. But there are several major issues with either set-up. We will continue to work with the community designers and try and find a cost effective reasonable solution that will work the best.

    Thanks to the people like Luke, BE, Cougar and Tuna maybe there will be a solution.

    Thanks for the update.

    I think pretty much most active AO members want to help AGD and spread the mag love.


  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    Creating any part in any quantity is a daunting task in a market where a high number of sales is 25 units. Look at the thread sales of Cougar and Xmagterror when they sell bodies or frames and they struggle for weeks to get to 25 units.
    Is it possible that Cougar and Xmagterror struggle to get to 25 units because they design things that only 25 people would want?
    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    Is it possible that Cougar and Xmagterror struggle to get to 25 units because they design things that only 25 people would want?
    That is a very true possibility!
    I personally believe those two individuals have made some very nice products and they have been well received.
    But in recent history, whatever has been made in the way of AGD directed products, by whomever, typically only sells in relatively small quantities.
    I wasn't picking on anyone's product in particular, just pointing out how small the market is.

  30. #30
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    Its a tough situation...you produce too much product relative to the market and you sit on inventory you can't sell. You produce too little product you probably won't generate any interest to grow demand.

    Doing what I can to spread the word.

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