If AGD Wanted To Go Electronic ?

[luke]

Will there be a 45 style in the long run? I don't think this was ever answered...or was it?

Anything is possible, are you buying?

[Sandman]

I certainly would be!

[going_home]

I certainly would be!

We were at the Dye booth talking to Billy Wing at cup and my buddy mentioned to him they should seriously think about making black Dye stickies again.

He didnt say they would but he didnt flat out shoot it down either.

It'd be a great fit to go with a new 45 frame.

Just saying....

[luke]

It's unfortunate that both DYE and AGD got the 45 grip screw spacing wrong, both are wider than spec (but different). You have to force the DYE grips just enough that they get tweaked and don't fit properly.

[going_home]

Compared to a 1911 ?

[captian pinky]

It's unfortunate that both DYE and AGD got the 45 grip screw spacing wrong, both are wider than spec (but different). You have to force the DYE grips just enough that they get tweaked and don't fit properly.

funny you mention that because dye had issues with the grips for the ul frames too.

[luke]

Compared to a 1911 ?

Yes.

[vintage]

the thing I noticed is 1911 grip panel fit my intelliframe just fine but wrap around grips wont because their is no relief behind/below the trigger guard.

[going_home]

Dye Stickies fit the Intelliframe perfectly.

[cfos00]

Super late to the party and not here too much, but Sandman have you tried talking to Arnold's Metal Service for ano? They do BPS and Bob Long markers, and have a few things going for them. They're extremely fast, have good quality, and are one of the consistently cheapest shops that I've used and seen. We're talking turnaround times of 2 weeks on the three projects I've used them on. They also can do small and large orders and handle both. They're also a professional ano shop---not a gararge shop. They might be a good option for you.

[luke]

Dye Stickies fit the Intelliframe perfectly.

If so, someone has made changes somewhere along the road. I'm referencing the first run Intelliframe, the one without the little jog in the trigger guard to clear the asa and the AGD cad files and the screw spacing does not match 45 grip spec. Of course the screw spacing can be whatever the designer wants but typically when frame and or grips are labeled a "45" it's saying it's made to 1911 specs.

Here is what I have found for screw spacing:
DYE Stickies > 3.125"
AGD Intelli > 3.082"
45 Grip spec > 3.0625
As a side note PTP grips are dead nuts perfect!

My guess is if your DYE Stickies fit "perfect" either DYE or AGD changed the spacing (Which I find extremely doubtful on either account) or more likely someone has filed the holes in the Stickies so they fit. From a machinist perspective both DYE and AGD are off by a mile. LOL.

[going_home]

[luke]

A picture might speak to you but mathematics is the ultimate ruler in my universe, math may not make sense to some but it is no lier! (LOL >> ) I never said they didn't fit, I said the screw spacing is incorrect. Math is math, spec is spec, within tolerance is close enough. From a technical, machining, design and or engineering perspective I would say someone forked up. For many reasons I can't imagine DYE or AGD chose those dimensions on purpose. Chances are it was an oversight on the designers part. Looking at the AGD spacing I would guess the designer added the holes in the drawing as a place holder because he didn't know what spec was, then forgot about it, the measurement is just too odd to think otherwise. I've been designing in two different fields for more than 15 years and stuff like that happens with the 10's of thousands of details a designer has to keep track of. As far as DYE being 1/16" off, I have no clue, perhaps they are not branded as 45 grips(?)

[luke]

Since you dont trust my math

Perfect fit right?



Nope. The panels warp when you force them into place.

[going_home]

Dye Stickies fit the Intelliframe perfectly.

Mine fit fine.

I'll stand by what I said.

That style you have in the pics doesnt fit anyones frame right, and is not a good example.

I'm not going by math, nor am I disputing your math, just saying mine fit fine, and I've never had an issue with them.

Now that we've swerved off subject......

[Nobody]

Ok, so you are trusting a (presumed) hot molded product that shrinks when it is cooled to stay within exacting specs? Get over it. I am sure that if you take 10 different dye sticky grips, that the spacing on them will vary from grip to grip.

This would be different in a machine aluminium grip but its pointless to talk about specs on a maliable, changing soft products as grips. Maybe i don't know rubber or the injection molded products...

[luke]

I've made MANY different molds in aluminum and rubber and done castings in rubber and plastic. I've done open pours and injection molding in my garage. As a matter of FACT, I've made 45 and Emag panels that fit perfect. There is ZERO reason or excuses why a big time manufacturer can't hit within the proper tolerances if they start with the correct drawings. The casting process is the same in all industries whether your making soles for shoes, engine blocks in steel or aluminum or gun grips in plastic and rubber. Anyone making molds professionally will know the shrink rate for the medium they're working in and will make the molds accordingly. Like it or not it all boils down to mathematics. If it's impossible to do why are the PTP grips dead nuts?

[going_home]

If it's impossible to do why are the PTP grips dead nuts?

They screwed up and did something right ?

[Nobody]

I've made MANY different molds in aluminum and rubber and done castings in rubber and plastic. I've done open pours and injection molding in my garage. As a matter of FACT, I've made 45 and Emag panels that fit perfect. There is ZERO reason or excuses why a big time manufacturer can't hit within the proper tolerances if they start with the correct drawings. The casting process is the same in all industries whether your making soles for shoes, engine blocks in steel or aluminum or gun grips in plastic and rubber. Anyone making molds professionally will know the shrink rate for the medium they're working in and will make the molds accordingly. Like it or not it all boils down to mathematics. If it's impossible to do why are the PTP grips dead nuts?

From what i have gotten from people who have done production runs, not just 10 parts, but 100, 1000, 100,000s of parts; you are dealing with people who don't understand what its for, if a few thousandths here or there matter, or the simple fact that cutters or molds get gunked up, or medium runs out mid pour and the production QC just lets something that is not up to spec. Even if you have a company that is great at meeting prospective specs, a broken tool, an off center hole, even a dull cutter; you can not have the kind of attention that single pieces get.

So yes, from you perspective, its easy to see 1 out of 10 items not be to spec. When you are talking about the shear number of dye stickies out there(which i am sure where manufactured overseas, which is a whole different matter entirely), i would venture is in the hundreds of thousands of grips; your small sample size can not be the end all, nor the spec for the entire line. That is a fact.

They screwed up and did something right ?

This

[luke]

Machined molds will repeat 1x or 10Kx or even 100Kx times without deviation. Silicon molds do wear out but you will notice it immediately on the first few bad parts, in that case you stop and make another mold. You can normally see them degrading, it doesn't sneak up on you. Large manufactures would have shrinkage dialed in based on materials used, that said, if the parts you had made don't fit properly chances are it's your fault. I won't pretend to know why DYE chose 3.125" for center-line on their grip screws but I would wager it was an oversight for AGD. Like I said, I can see that happening pretty easily based on my own experience in the design industry. My only argument is the dimensions of the so called 45 grips, I don't presume to know or understand the intent of other manufacturers but it sure looks like a screw up to me. I will argue that if you are calling your paintball grip frame a 45 I damn sure better be able to go to Pachmayr and buy a set of standard panels or wrap-arounds that fit. That's the entire reason for using the 45 platform, it's ridicules to argue otherwise.

[luke]

So yes, from you perspective, its easy to see 1 out of 10 items not be to spec.

When you are talking about the shear number of dye stickies out there(which i am sure where manufactured overseas, which is a whole different matter entirely), i would venture is in the hundreds of thousands of grips; your small sample size can not be the end all, nor the spec for the entire line. That is a fact.

Once the molds are made nothing changes, they will repeat over and over again down to the finest detail.

[luke]

you are dealing with people who don't understand what its for, if a few thousandths here or there matter,

If you do the math you will see AGD is off by 100ths not 1000's (big difference in the machining industry).

[Spiritchaser]

I can't speak to the specific materials used in these grips, but certainly with polyurethane, there can be modest dimensional changes after fabrication. We had multiple instances across multiple batches where parts we stored for a while grew enough for it to be a headache. At first We thought it was a fabrication error because the growth was actually somewhat consistant. We know temperature was a factor, and suspect that time at humidity level was too. Now: parts stored in a restrained state didn't have the problem.

Again: not sure that this is actually the right polymer, or that it is in any way related...

For the record we established that those parts were not to be stocked, and that they needed to be installed (and thus restrained) very soon after manufacturing. We toyed with the idea of fabricating undersize, but decided a science project to figure out by how much couldn't be justified for that part.

[Sandman]

I'm not sure who made the intelliframe original drawings for AGD. I"m not even sure who ran the machining back then.
Hopefully, newer ones are made with better specs.

Hey luke when's that frame of yours available?

[luke]

Hopefully, newer ones are made with better specs.

I hope not, I make my Intelli grip panels to AGD spec not the 1911.

Hey luke when's that frame of yours available?

I want to change a few things up so it's taking a little longer than expected, but we're almost there. I hope to have a working prototype in January.

[RogueFactor]

They screwed up and did something right ?

Thats funny right there^...and true! Well done, GH. Well done.

[AGD]

This thread is an interesting read. I have often pondered on how to make a low volume but still profitable marker. Something like a 'signature series' with only a restricted amount sold. Still that type of product would be at the very top price range of the market and that alone would bring on the complaints.

The market is SO small now it just shuts off most of the options. Maybe when the last of the gun manufacturers go out of business there will be enough demand. Very disappointing to see that the lawsuits have started up again. If you have the same people you get the same results.

AGD

[going_home]

Yes sir, the lawsuits.

Even though I've bought most of my stuff used, I've started the process of ridding myself of anything GI, Empire, or Kee.

[luke]

Yes sir, the lawsuits.

Even though I've bought most of my stuff used, I've started the process of ridding myself of anything GI, Empire, or Kee.

What are they going after this time?

[Kartan]

paint... colours
thats why i decided to hold off on an emire sniper and rather go for redundant mag parts.