Pumphaus hardline issue

[ghost flanker]

I recently bought my first Pumphaus hardline kit for my Phantom. The problem is that both ends of the aluminum line easily pull right out of any fittings I insert them into, CCM or otherwise. It doesn't lock or secure into the fittings under tension or air pressure like macroline does. The surface of the ends of the aluminum line are smooth and don't seem to provide anything for the fittings to bite into. I'm new to this style of hardline, but this can't be normal.

This is the gun with the hardline kit installed with the aluminum line fully inserted in both fittings:


When the gun is pressurized, this happens:


It holds air, but just barely. It looks like poop and does not seem safe at all. One small knock could cause the line to blow out from the fitting on the vertical ASA. Again, the fittings themselves aren't biting in and securing the line in place. The wide angle of the hardline is all that's keeping the air pressure from pushing it out completely. If the aluminum line were a different shape, say a wide U shape, it would fly right off the fittings.

So can anyone who is familiar with this hardline tell me why this is happening?

[rawbutter]

I bet you just need tighter o-rings. Take apart the CCM fittings and pop out the o-rings that clamp onto the hardline. Then visit your local hardware store and fish through the o-rings they have in their nuts and bolts section. You should be able to find something with the same outer diameter (so it still fits inside the CCM fitting) but a smaller inner diameter (to fit the hardline tighter).

[ghost flanker]

Wait, the o-ring is what clamps the air line in place? I thought these were what clamp down and hook in to the air line:

[ghost flanker]

I bet you just need tighter o-rings. Take apart the CCM fittings and pop out the o-rings that clamp onto the hardline. Then visit your local hardware store and fish through the o-rings they have in their nuts and bolts section. You should be able to find something with the same outer diameter (so it still fits inside the CCM fitting) but a smaller inner diameter (to fit the hardline tighter).

Ok, I just gave this a shot. Found a nice, fat o-ring of the same diameter and installed it, but it didn't help. Same deal. Any other ideas? I'm stumped here.

[rawbutter]

Apparently I know less about compression fittings than I thought I did. Sorry about that.

Have you tried emailing PumpHause directly? Or sending them a message on their Facebook page? Maybe you got a defective kit. I mean, you bought the CCM fittings and hardline together as a kit that's specifically designed for the Phantom, right? It shouldn't buckle like that, not unless you're using higher-than-normal pressure.

[Nobody]

Check the OD of the air line. Make sure that it's 1/4".

[Sandman]

Check the OD of the air line. Make sure that it's 1/4".

Yeah, What he said. If your calipers read .250 plus or minus .001 maybe .002, that would be the right size. If they polished the aluminum to ano it and took too much off, it might make it loose.

Technically, the fittings are designed for use with the plastic line. When you press it in it grabs when you pull on it. Kinda like shark teeth. One way in. Then when you push in the little ring when it's degassed it provides a release so you can slide it out.

With aluminum line, which technically the fitting was not designed for, you lose that "grab" and the line is held in place by the force of pressure alone.
There are commercial fittings designed to hold soft metal tubing, just nothing ever at the pressures we use in paintball.

I've made the same connections before using aluminum tubing and the basic Norgren PTC fittings commonly sold in paintball. I posted up about it on Facebook not that long ago, and installed a line on Bunny's RT.

I think it would be tough for it to blow out easily. At least the line I installed was basically impossible to remove if the fittings were locked in place.

My suggestion is to install the tubing, then lock your fittings into place. If you can't remove that tube from the position, I think you are fine.
If the tubing is cut too "short" and you can take it off with the fittings locked in place then, maybe you have a concern.

Just my 2 cents.

[Laku]

Just tighten up the ccm fitting at the bottom so that it doesn't allow the movement?

[ghost flanker]

I did. Both fittings are as tight as they'll go without pulverizing the little o-rings under the heads of the Allen bolts. They're really solid and stable, though. This particular kit simply can't hold together nearly strong enough to properly resist 850 psi.

Pumphaus claims that this is the first time this has ever happened with one of their kits, so they will be replacing the hardline. I'm skeptical, but keeping my fingers crossed.

[Laku]

I did. Both fittings are as tight as they'll go without pulverizing the little o-rings under the heads of the Allen bolts. They're really solid and stable, though. This particular kit simply can't hold together nearly strong enough to properly resist 850 psi.

Pumphaus claims that this is the first time this has ever happened with one of their kits, so they will be replacing the hardline. I'm skeptical, but keeping my fingers crossed.

It looked like the lower fitting had moved a little on your picture, hard to tell.

But the line has pretty aggressive angle on it, so it will likely move easier than one with more shallow angle as the forces that affect it are more aligned to push it out.

[MANN]

There are commercial fittings designed to hold soft metal tubing, just nothing ever at the pressures we use in paintball.

Swagelok, Parker, and most of the other fitting manufactures make fittings designed for 1/4" tubing for pressures much greater than any paintball air tank will produce. They are ss, and iirc they are rated somewhere around the 10000psi.

I had to go way back to find this post. I thought I had one here too, but I couldn't figure out the new search. Here is a link to what the fittings look like.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/m...line-sale.html

[maniacmechanic]

Swagelok, Parker, and most of the other fitting manufactures make fittings designed for 1/4" tubing for pressures much greater than any paintball air tank will produce. They are ss, and iirc they are rated somewhere around the 10000psi.

I had to go way back to find this post. I thought I had one here too, but I couldn't figure out the new search. Here is a link to what the fittings look like.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/m...line-sale.html

the fittings this gent is dealing with are push-lock ,,, the tubing and fittings from the MCB thread are ferrel style

[MANN]

yes. I am saying that you should be using ferrel style fittings with hardline.

[BigEvil]

That hardline looks like it should seal in a standard macroline fitting. There are .010 orings in the macro fittings. The CCM I think are the same but not 100% sure. Make sure you have orings in there, the line should seal with pressure. Also make sure the tube is 1/4". I should be. If it was annoed aluminum it might be FUBAR.

[Spider-TW]

Are you sure the ends are pushed past the o-rings and not just sitting in the collars? That would explain the extra length.

[Sandman]

Swagelok, Parker, and most of the other fitting manufactures make fittings designed for 1/4" tubing for pressures much greater than any paintball air tank will produce. They are ss, and iirc they are rated somewhere around the 10000psi.

I had to go way back to find this post. I thought I had one here too, but I couldn't figure out the new search. Here is a link to what the fittings look like.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/m...line-sale.html

I was clearly referring to push to connect fittings.

The point of using lines like this is to not use ferrel style fittings. Using ferrel style fittings open up a tons of possibilities. But they are mostly ugly, and bulky, made from stainless and brass and not able to match our pretty paintball guns.

[MANN]

I was clearly referring to push to connect fittings.

The point of using lines like this is to not use ferrel style fittings. Using ferrel style fittings open up a tons of possibilities. But they are mostly ugly, and bulky, made from stainless and brass and not able to match our pretty paintball guns.

My bad.

Just fyi the fittings in the link that I posted earlier are available in aluminum, are not that much bigger than ccm fittings, are rated for paintball pressures, and are made for hardline. I believe the part number is A-400-1-2 from swagelok, and i think the price was @5.00ea.

[Sandman]

MANN,

I did take a look at those fittings again and I have to admit they are pretty clean looking. Depending on if you want or more industrial hard look that will never break (well almost never). They are very cool. The 90 degree versions have a bit more extension than I'd like but they still look ok.

I found a batch on Ebay. They seem to sell for about $7.00 each retail. I found a batch of 25 for $170.00 on Ebay and a solo listing for $6.90.
I guess I'm going to mess with some of these again.....The push to connect set-up with the CCM fittings is the only way to get a really clean custom look, but to get a hardcore players set-up those swaglocks would be the way to go.


I wasn't sure though if the specs for the ferrel will work with the aluminum line or does it have to be stainless line?
I'd assume it would work with either.

Thanks for posting up that part number. Made that easy to look up again.

[ghost flanker]

Laku,

The bottom fitting doesn't move/pivot at all when gassed up. The hardline simply pushes itself out of it partially. If anything, the top fitting may be moving/pivoting a tiny bit upon pressurization due to the leverage being exerted on it. And the angle of the line is definitely part of the problem. If it were straight, the fact that the hardline doesn't get clamped in would be a non-issue. I just can't understand how nobody has ever had an issue with these kits before me. Can't find one bad review or even so much as a complaint like mine on the interwebs.


BigEvil,

The kit seals and holds pressure, but the hardline doesn't clamp in with any macroline fittings -- standard or CCM. The hardline partially pushes out of the bottom fitting, but it doesn't push out completely due to the wide angle of the hardline...it sorta gets wedged in between the fittings. If the hardline was flexible, or if it had a more acute angle, the bottom fitting would blow out the hardline completely.
Pumphaus seems to think the tubing may be out of spec. They are in the process of sending me a replacement now. We'll see.


Spider-TW,

I'm positive that the hardline is pushed past the o-rings. Before inserting the aluminum piece of the fitting onto the stainless piece that is threaded into the vertical ASA, I can visually confirm that the hardline is fully inserted and practically flush with the inside surface of the hole that the stainless piece goes into. As far as I can tell, the problem here is that there is nothing for the fitting's "shark teeth" to bite into. The teeth simply glide over the hard surface of the aluminum hardline and allow the hardline to slip out with very little resistance, hence the extra length seen in the second picture. The CCM fittings hold macroline perfectly when it is used in place of the hardline.

[zondo]

Try doubling up on o-rings in the fitting.

Another question (sorry if I missed it if you did this already), does the hardline seal with regular macro fittings? You already established that the CCM ones seal with regular Macro. Although, I found that the CCM fittings and norgren macro fittings require different lengths of hardline. I trimmed maybe 1/8"-1/4" off a hardline that fit with norgren fittings to get it to fit in my CCM fittings.


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[ghost flanker]

I get the same results with standard fittings and CCM fittings when using the hardline. It seals in the sense that there are no leaks, but all the "push-grip" fittings I've (standard or CCM) do not grip onto the hardline. It's only held in place by tube's wide angle. If the hardline tube was at a more acute angle, say 90° instead of 45°, 850 psi would have no problem blowing the hardline right out of the fitting on the vertical ASA.

[Sandman]

Did you ever measure the OD of their pipe?

And just to be clear, as I said before, these fittings were never designed to be used with hardlines....
You bought a custom kit, using parts that were not designed to be used with each other.
That would be the "custom".

The kit only works on the principle that the line is "wedged in" and cannot come out without rotating the fitting.
Any pipe they send you as a replacement may fit tighter, but the fittings are never going to "bite" in.

All that being said they are still cool to use and look great. And for the most part they do work without issue.

Maybe your tubing is just a tad too short....
Hopefully the new tube they send works out.

[Nobody]

Yup, measure the OD if the old tube and the new. It could be smaller, it could not.

The only other thing that i can think of, for this problem is that the line is not long enough and because it is not seating fully, the high pressure leak is causing the fitting to spit the line. I do not know if it is pre-cut or not but if all the fittings work with macroline, then it has to be the line itself.

[ghost flanker]

Unfortunately, I don't own calipers so I didn't get a chance to measure the OD of the tube before returning it via mail. However, I can say that the hardline was not too short. After first assembling the aluminum pieces of the fittings onto the tube, I could just barely insert the whole assembly onto both steel posts. Any longer of a tube would have made doing so physically impossible.

I agree that the fittings weren't designed to be used with a hardline, but the hardline should have been designed to work properly with the fittings. A shallow square groove circumventing the OD about 1/4" from both ends of the tube would have allowed the push-grip feature to function. The "wedged-in" fit without the push-grip would also have worked better had the angle of the tube been more obtuse, thereby creating a straighter line between the two fittings.

Just FYI, Nobody, the tube was pre-cut to specifically be installed on a VSC Phantom. And, um, high pressure "leak"? Not sure if that was a typo, but there's no leak.

[Sandman]

Ghost, I'm not sure if a groove where the fitting grabs would do any good. It might help. Something to try sometime. I'm sure the cost of the pipe would be substantially more if pumphaus was doing that work to the lines. As it is all they are doing is buying 2K pipe, cutting, bending, polishing and coloring.
I posted this up on Facebook awhile ago. I made this line for Bunny on his RT Classic. It worked just fine. It doesn't move at all.
All I did was cut, polish, bend and install. It's using the Basic Norgren fittings too.

[UncleStasiu]

Ghost nailed it with the mention of a more obtuse angle. The closer it gets to 90deg the more the fittings will move when pressurized. I've made a bunch of hardlines for various guns and the forces need to line up right for it to work correctly.

When pressurized, the tube tries to force out of the fittings, and cocks against the inside of the fitting. That's what keeps it from coming out. The collar doesn't bite into the metal tube at all, its only function here is to keep the o-ring in place.

The angle between the tube and fitting at which it cocks is dependent on tolerances and depth of insertion. In your case, the angle (and possibly the length) of the tube is such that it's forced farther out before cocking, so it looks off.

[Kartan]

sr if its too offtopic, but could a phantom hardline be used as a substitute on an automag?
or is the airflow not enougth to keep the xvalve going....

[Nobody]

sr if its too offtopic, but could a phantom hardline be used as a substitute on an automag?
or is the airflow not enougth to keep the xvalve going....

A hardline is a hard-line, just like compressed air can be used in place of pure nitrogen for paintball use. It doesn't matter what it's labeled as long as the pressure rating is sufficient for your use. Most people use brakeline as it is rated at 1000psi burst pressure. As long as it is 1/4" OD for the fitting, it will work.

[Sandman]

sr if its too offtopic, but could a phantom hardline be used as a substitute on an automag?
or is the airflow not enougth to keep the xvalve going....

Flow is well more than enough. Could run a few X-valves.

[Kartan]

thanks for so quickly helping me out - appreciated!