X Valve Trigger problem.

[Fancyfingers]

Hey guys, I come to you seeking advise from the wise. I know a little bit about mags and such but this one is breaking my stones till no end.
I have X valved ULE mag with an inteliframe. I got her to RT nicely, but every now and again the bolt just goes dead. The trigger pin has pressure to push the trigger forward, but pulling it doesn't fire the marker.
I have to de-gas and re-gas the marker and she shoots until it happens again.
Any ideas or help would be appreciated.
Thank you oh great Mag Gurus
(If this is in the wrong section I apologize and will gladly move promptly)

[nak81783]

Sounds like bolt stick. Tune the Level 10 per athomas' guide in the Level 10 sticky.

https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...50#post2868950

[tucson.az.jbreen]

(more of an additional question then an answer, but...)

Sounds allot like my problems. I believe the source of my problem was the length of the on/off pin. I have yet to do field testing, but I believe replacing the pin with a shorter one fixed the problem

Also with the longer stock pin, I was unable to get my valve to do single shots, it bounces and shoots full auto no matter how you work the trigger.

Does this sound like you're set up at all?

Thanks, Jim

[Spider-TW]

Also with the longer stock pin, I was unable to get my valve to do single shots, it bounces and shoots full auto no matter how you work the trigger.

Is that what you meant to say? It sounds backwards.

[tucson.az.jbreen]

I see your point , and it does sound backwards.

With the stock .750 pin, there is no semi auto fire. If I squeeze the trigger all the way down, and try to hold it, the marker would continue to cycle.

[nak81783]

tucson,

Where in the trigger stroke does it initially fire -- start, middle, end?

[Fancyfingers]

The on off pin on this mag is .073, I guess it got shortened a little bit. It also fires right in the middle of the trigger pull. If you pull the trigger all the way back in one motion it will only fire one ball. The tank I'm using is also outputting 1100 psi, so I don't think air delivery is a problem.

[nak81783]

That high of pressure with .750 pin will likely cause reactivity. If you meant your currently installed pin is .730, it is even more likely to bounce. Are you saying it bounces less with the .730 pin than the .750 pin?

Try 850psi input and the .750 pin. If that works like a semi should, I'd leave it there.

[tucson.az.jbreen]

Nak- with the .750 my gun shoots almost instantly when you pull the trigger. It rt's at an incredible rate with light pressure on the trigger. The gun does unsavory things when you try to pull the trigger hard.

[Fancyfingers]

I unfortunately do not have a .075 pin, just the shortened one.

[Tunaman]

I bet you are missing an oring in the on/off...

[maniacmechanic]

(more of an additional question then an answer, but...)

Sounds allot like my problems. I believe the source of my problem was the length of the on/off pin. I have yet to do field testing, but I believe replacing the pin with a shorter one fixed the problem.

Totally a hypothesis, but I believe the Luke's custom ultra lite rail has the sear assembly sitting closer to the valve body, then would an agd stock rail. Assuming my theory is valid, this would mean the sear was pushing the pin further into the body than what is ideal.

Also with the longer stock pin, I was unable to get my valve to do single shots, it bounces and shoots full auto no matter how you work the trigger.

Does this sound like you're set up at all?

Thanks, Jim

IIRC Lukes rails are made from AGD rails ( he just makes'em really lite ) ,, I don't think he makes them from scratch ( I may be wrong If I am please correct me )
Normally we shorten pins , shim the on/off or increase reg output psi ( variable adjustable regs are the best for this ) to get more reactivity

[athomas]

The OP problem does sound like bolt stick. The 0.730" pin is short, but should work fine. It will just be a bit more reactive, especially with the 1100psi input. There could be an on-off oring problem as well. A leak in that area could cause the bolt to lock up. When you hold the trigger in, does the bolt sputter or weep air out the front? If it does, then one of the on-off orings is leaking. If not, then your problem is probably a carrier oring that is too tight.

tuscson: Your problem sounds like a leaking on-off. The longer pin should reduce the reactivity not enhance it. The fact that it goes full auto when you hold the trigger would indicate significant air flow through the on-off area. Have a look at your orings and make sure they are all there and in good condition.

[tucson.az.jbreen]

OK, I'll check next. I just moved, everything is on boxes and I'll do field testing soon.

Will I have spares in my level 10 kit that came with the gun?

Or should I order a rebuild kit preemptively?

Is it possible that my x valve say inactive so long that all the o rings need changing?

[athomas]

tucson: The orings could be hardened if they are old. They will be yellow and hard when that happens. Most likely, if the oring looks fine, any problems will be caused by a piece of dirt or debris. Unfortunately, some dirt can cause blemishes in the oring surface that can cause issues. If the mag has been sitting for a while, it never hurts to give it a good cleaning and inspect the oring. Replace any that are suspect.

If you have a RT or X-valve oring kit, it will have spare on-off orings. The level 10 kit will only have spare carrier orings.

[tucson.az.jbreen]

The valve is from tuna, and has not sat inactive as long as I've owned it. What I meant was perhaps these orings are original to the manufacture date of the valve, and that they have expired.

If I were to pursue this line of thought and purchase a rebuild kit, how would one ensure the kit is fresh and not pre expired like the ones in the valve?

[Mondoatx]

Hey guys, I come to you seeking advise from the wise. I know a little bit about mags and such but this one is breaking my stones till no end.
I have X valved ULE mag with an inteliframe. I got her to RT nicely, but every now and again the bolt just goes dead. The trigger pin has pressure to push the trigger forward, but pulling it doesn't fire the marker.
I have to de-gas and re-gas the marker and she shoots until it happens again.

Fancyfingers,

Mine was doing the EXACT same thing (RT Pro with Xvalve and intelliframe)... I would have to turn the air on and off before the trigger would act right... with an additional issue... when it would fire the first shot would be super low velocity... I was using the red spring...

I replaced every seal in the gun and it was still doing the same thing... I was almost at my wit's end and wanted to throw it through the wall...

A buddy of mine asked me what spring... and I told him the red one... and he said "sometimes those come with too much red paint on them and it binds up on the bolt because it is too tight... take it off and put it back on"... I tried that... and he was right... it was super tight...

The only other spring I had at the time was the gold one... but it was much looser (not tight at all and I didn't have to fight to get it on)...

I replaced it and it totally worked... I wasn't expecting it to work... but it totally did... and I had eliminated all the other variables... had to tune the L10 after that but no weird trigger issues and no low velocity first shot issues... Oh... and I also run 1100 Lbs input pressure.

If you have another bolt spring try it out... can't hurt.

Hope this helps man.

M

[luke]

(more of an additional question then an answer, but...)
Totally a hypothesis, but I believe the Luke's custom ultra lite rail has the sear assembly sitting closer to the valve body, then would an agd stock rail. Assuming my theory is valid, this would mean the sear was pushing the pin further into the body than what is ideal. Thanks, Jim

You keep insinuating these are not to spec, if you're going to make a statement like that at least back it up with actual measurements. What you suggest about the pin being pushed in further is not even possible. The pin depth is controlled by the on/off assembly and the on/off pin length, when you pull the trigger the on/off acts as a stop for the sear. It does not work as you suggest.

[Tunaman]

You keep insinuating these are not to spec, if you're going to make a statement like that at least back it up with actual measurements. What you suggest about the pin being pushed in further is not even possible. The pin depth is controlled by the on/off assembly and the on/off pin length, when you pull the trigger the on/off acts as a stop for the sear. It does not work as you suggest.

Actually, the sear has a bump on it that hits the body when fully actuated by the on/off pin. It has nothing to do with the rail. Your rails are fine so his argument is moot.

[luke]

For clarification, here's a cut away of the rail with and without the body.

This first one verifies what Tunaman said, when you air up the marker the pin is pushed out of the on/off assembly and stops when the sear hits the underside of the body. The picture shows the "bump" on the sear and the mark it leaves on the bottom of the body when the marker is set to fire.



This cut away shows the whole assembly with the sear in the firing position.


These two pictures show the sear in the firing position with the body removed, the on/off body acts as a sear stop, it will not allow the on/off pin to be pushed any further in than the top of the assembly. The pin depth is strictly controlled by its length and the on/off top.

[Fancyfingers]

Mondoatx, I have tried a couple different springs, the looser fitting ones RT better, but I believe my problem stems from the bolt not returning all the way. I have noticed that when she goes dead, I can manually push the bolt all the way to the rear, the sear resets and she shoots again. The longer spring reduces the frequency of the bolt stopping, except it drags too much and causes large inconsistencies in velocity and reactivity.

[Tunaman]

Mondoatx, I have tried a couple different springs, the looser fitting ones RT better, but I believe my problem stems from the bolt not returning all the way. I have noticed that when she goes dead, I can manually push the bolt all the way to the rear, the sear resets and she shoots again. The longer spring reduces the frequency of the bolt stopping, except it drags too much and causes large inconsistencies in velocity and reactivity.

Try tightening the rear field strip screw with a wrench...

[tucson.az.jbreen]

Ok, I see that. Excellent visuals, thank you for taking the time to post all of this.

[athomas]

Mondoatx, I have tried a couple different springs, the looser fitting ones RT better, but I believe my problem stems from the bolt not returning all the way. I have noticed that when she goes dead, I can manually push the bolt all the way to the rear, the sear resets and she shoots again. The longer spring reduces the frequency of the bolt stopping, except it drags too much and causes large inconsistencies in velocity and reactivity.

If the field screw tightening doesn't help straighten the valve alignment and free up the bolt, then your problem is most likely a carrier that is too tight. That would sometimes be made to work by going to a lighter spring such as what worked for Mondoatx. It doesn't fix the problem though, only masks it. The bolt needs to move freely in and out of the carrier oring without any friction. If the tension on the carrier oring is higher than the force exerted on the bolt stem, then the higher friction can prevent the bolt from firing.
.

[tucson.az.jbreen]

Which axis is the level ten spacer adjusting ?

They compress the o ring vertically to make it tighter or more loose?

Or does it adjust horizontal distance from some point of reference like the L7 power tube spacer kit?

[luke]

Fancyfingers, are you running trigger stops?

[Laku]

Which axis is the level ten spacer adjusting ?

They compress the o ring vertically to make it tighter or more loose?

Or does it adjust horizontal distance from some point of reference like the L7 power tube spacer kit?

It compresses the o-ring, making it tighter or looser.

[Spider-TW]

Which axis is the level ten spacer adjusting ?

They compress the o ring vertically to make it tighter or more loose?

Or does it adjust horizontal distance from some point of reference like the L7 power tube spacer kit?

It compresses the o-ring, making it tighter or looser.

The level 10 uses a "carrier" to hold the o-ring and adjust the tension of the seal, as Laku said. The level 10 "shims" are used (if at all) to adjust the distance to the o-ring.

While level 7 "spacers" occupy the same area as the level 10 "carriers", the carrier's job is as a set-length spacer with a set inside diameter. Traditionally, you use a level 7 spacer kit to adjust the distance to the o-ring on a level 7, but you can use a level 10 shim (0.010") or a ULT shim (0.005") on top of a short spacer to increase that distance.

[luke]

If it only happens once in awhile it could be your short stroking the trigger or if you tune your trigger stops right on the "firing and reset" edge you may on occasion get a shot that doesn't reset the bolt.

[Tunaman]

If it only happens once in awhile it could be your short stroking the trigger or if you tune you trigger stops right on the "firing and reset" edge you may on occasion a shot that doesn't reset the bolt.

This is why trigger stops are not recommended in an automag. All mags require a full pull and full release to operate correctly. Premature sear and bolt wear will occur with trigger stops.