Strange leak within the XValve

[ideinit]

Hello all,

I have a very faint leak somewhere in the body of the valve, highlighted below, and can be heard down the barrel. I determined the location by putting my ear to it... I know, it's not very scientific but that's the best I got.



The leak is louder when the trigger is at rest, and quieter when the trigger is held.

It doesn't seem to be a carrier leak because neither pushing on the bolt nor reducing carrier sizes change the sound.

It started after I removed and cleaned the ULT on/off, described here. I first thought it was a ULT leak but after putting in new o-rings and eventually putting in a (RT) on/off, the leak persisted. So (I think) this rules out ULT leak.

(XValve explode view for clarity)


I have since changed/swapped out the following:
#27 - reg. valve pin assembly (just the o-rings, NOT the whole assembly)
#7 - reg. seat o-ring
#20 - reg. seat o-ring
#13, #20 - on/off o-rings (I've even swapped out the entire ULT with a R/T on/off)
#6 - L10 carrier (went down in size while retaining the same carrier o-ring)

The curent configuration of my LV 10 bolt is with 0.5 carrier and no shims, as well as an ULT with 4 ULT shims.

I am at my wit's end here... any help will be highly appreciated!


Thanks!

[nak81783]

How old are the replacement parts you are using?

[ideinit]

How old are the replacement parts you are using?

They were brand-new o-rings.

[nak81783]

Your old thread is labeled "Solved". Did you figure it out?

1. Is everything thoroughly oiled? Old orings would benefit from this, and new orings usuallly need oil and a few dozen shots (sometimes more) to break in, seat, and seal properly.
2. You stated the leak persisted with the RT On/Off. Does the leak get quieter but persist with the RT On/Off when the trigger is held back too, or does it only do that with the ULT?
3. Is the brass bushing in place in the rail's field strip screw hole?

[ideinit]

Your old thread is labeled "Solved". Did you figure it out?

1. Is everything thoroughly oiled? Old orings would benefit from this, and new orings usuallly need oil and a few dozen shots (sometimes more) to break in, seat, and seal properly.
2. You stated the leak persisted with the RT On/Off. Does the leak get quieter but persist with the RT On/Off when the trigger is held back too, or does it only do that with the ULT?
3. Is the brass bushing in place in the rail's field strip screw hole?

Old thread is "solved" because it doesn't seem to be an ULT leak, so it's really closed so I can move the discussion here.

1) I "massaged" each o-ring with oil before installation, as well as blowing oil through the internals by putting oil in the macroline fitting and firing a few dozen shots
2) So I had some issues firing properly with the RT on/off (it will run off). But since I was able to hear the leak with RT on/off installed, I didn't go further down that path
3) Brass bushing is in place

The whole thing is just very bizarre - I've used my mag for years and haven't encounter anything like this...

[nak81783]

Perhaps try putting the RT On/Off back in and getting that working. They are less finicky than ULTs. With the RT On/Off working properly, try to diagnose the other problem, if there still is another problem. Post back with what you experience/observe with the RT On/Off. You may have issues with both on/offs, and it's causing confusion.

Do you have other Automags with which you could swap various parts?

Is there the classic "credit card thickness" gap between the trigger and trigger rod when at rest? There doesn't appear to be in the pic you posted.

[OneSelfLost]

Hey man, hows the space between the trigger and trigger rod look? Should be a credit cards thickness.

[ideinit]

Perhaps try putting the RT On/Off back in and getting that working. They are less finicky than ULTs. With the RT On/Off working properly, try to diagnose the other problem, if there still is another problem. Post back with what you experience/observe with the RT On/Off. You may have issues with both on/offs, and it's causing confusion.

Do you have other Automags with which you could swap various parts?

Is there the classic "credit card thickness" gap between the trigger and trigger rod when at rest? There doesn't appear to be in the pic you posted.

There is a gap between trigger and rod, my marker was not gassed up in the photo so it looks like they're touching.

So I borrowed a friend's mag (XValve, LV10, and ULT) to swap parts for debugging purposes. Here's some tests I've done:

1) Put his ULT in my mag. Result: leak
2) Put my ULT in his mag. Result: no leak
3) Put his reg. valve pin assembly in my mag. Result: leak
4) Put his LV10 power tube tip in my mag. Result: leak
5) Removed all my ULT shims, one at a time. Result: leak

I've also discovered one inconsistent thing about my leak: occasionally when I hold the trigger after a shot the leak stops, but it occasionally continues leaking.

I have checked the sear - it is razor sharp. The lip on my bolt looks decent too.

Lastly when I tape up the ULT, like the photo below, the marker does not fire but there are no leaks either (not sure if this helps in debugging).



I really appreciate all the help/suggestions from you guys!

[nak81783]

With trigger held back, is the leak indefinite, or does it eventually sputter out and stop?

Are you tightening the field strip screw with a hex key? If not, perhaps some misalignment is causing the issue. This could be why the tape helps; its acting like a shim.

What happens if you put your friend's bolt in your marker and vice versa? I've had one where the press-fit bolt stem came loose, causing a leak.

[ideinit]

With trigger held back, is the leak indefinite, or does it eventually sputter out and stop?

Are you tightening the field strip screw with a hex key? If not, perhaps some misalignment is causing the issue. This could be why the tape helps; its acting like a shim.

What happens if you put your friend's bolt in your marker and vice versa? I've had one where the press-fit bolt stem came loose, causing a leak.

- It's very inconsistent - sometimes it will stop and sometimes it will keep leaking. In the cases where it continues to leak, the leak sound becomes fainter
- I'm only hand tightening the field strip screw. Over-tightening it (even by hand) will cause the the bolt to not fully re-cock after a shot. As far as mis-alignment, I don't think that's the case because if I were to punch a hole on the tape like the following photo it will leak.


- I've done a couple more swaps today:

1) Friend's entire valve in my. Result: no leak
2) Friend's bolt in my. Result: leak
3) I look at the bolts side by side, the stem look like they're like they're the same height. Plus with #2 test above, I think we can rule out the issue being in the bolt.


I have run down air in 2 45/4500's... will not be able to do any more test until I get them filled. Again, thanks for all the help/suggestions.

[maniacmechanic]

You don't want to hear this but ,,, clean it again ,, sometimes too much oil is our enemy , it also traps and holds dirt , check the fitment of the orings ; are they too tight or "feel " not quite right , sometimes the things we look at 3 times , we finally see

[nak81783]

The bolt not resetting after a shot when the field strip screw is tightened is odd.

Is the powertube backing washer (#9 in the diagram you posted) present?

Is the powertube coming unthreaded from the rest of the valve?

I'm still fixated on the on/off, specifically the pocket in the valve. Your ULT in your friend's Mag didn't leak, his in yours did leak, tape stops leak, but hole in tape for pin leaks, and the RT On/off runs away on you. Is there a gob of crud up in the valve hole for the on/off? A burr? Did you ever get the RT On/off working right?

You can always send it to Tuna. I'm sure he can get it working right.

[ideinit]

The bolt not resetting after a shot when the field strip screw is tightened is odd.

Is the powertube backing washer (#9 in the diagram you posted) present?

Is the powertube coming unthreaded from the rest of the valve?

I'm just throwing darts at this point. You can always send it to Tuna. I'm sure he can get it working right.

- Ya the resetting issue has always been around. I think people on the forum always says to hand-tighten the field strip screw. The same re-cocking issue happens to my buddy's functional mag too

- Powertube backing washer is there. I've even put in a new one and it didn't change a thing

- That was initially one of my guesses too... What I did was to put tape around the seam where the powertube joins the body. That did not change the sound either

I am going to take everything apart, clean each and every o-ring, re-lube, and reassemble and hope for the best after I get my tanks refilled and testing.

I have also contacted Tuna, hope he can help me out.


Again, this is just super bizarre - I will definitely report back if I eventually fix it.

[nak81783]

I edited. Please review my last post.

[ideinit]

[...]
I'm still fixated on the on/off, specifically the pocket in the valve. Your ULT in your friend's Mag didn't leak, his in yours did leak, tape stops leak, but hole in tape for pin leaks, and the RT On/off runs away on you. Is there a gob of crud up in the valve hole for the on/off? A burr? Did you ever get the RT On/off working right?[...]

I have always suspected it's that area because it's literally the last thing I did before it started leaking. I.E., pulled the ULT out to wipe off paint.

I will do a closer inspection when I open the valve up. From what I remembered, there seemed to be scratches near the entrance where the ULT plugs in (I can see the paint coming off), however none of them look deep enough for the o-ring not to seal.

No I've never got the RT to work - I returned it back to the friend.


Will report back later

[audioSLAVE]

I'm wondering if it is the red oring that is around the base where the power tube tip screws into the valve body itself. I had similar issues where it sounded like it was the on/off area but could never isolate it. I sent it to Tuna and he was able to determine that it was the red o ring around the power tube base. This o-ring I believe is not on any exploded Valve view.

[ideinit]

I'm wondering if it is the red oring that is around the base where the power tube tip screws into the valve body itself. I had similar issues where it sounded like it was the on/off area but could never isolate it. I sent it to Tuna and he was able to determine that it was the red o ring around the power tube base. This o-ring I believe is not on any exploded Valve view.

Are you talking about #1 or #2 below?



For #1 - I have swapped out the tip with my buddy's functional mag and it didn't help

For #2 - I have put tape around the seam and it did not change the leak sound


Or is there another location you're pointing to?

[vintage]

make sure the on off pin is not bent. the ULT pins can bend easier than all the others.

[audioSLAVE]

#2

[Tunaman]

My bet would be a nice scratch inside of the on/off hole...

[ideinit]

make sure the on off pin is not bent. the ULT pins can bend easier than all the others.

I had tested with my buddy's ULT in my mag and the leak persisted. So I think it's more with my valve body itself.

[ideinit]

#2

So I've tested with taping up the seam to see if the leak tone changes; it didn't. So I think it not #2

[ideinit]

My bet would be a nice scratch inside of the on/off hole...

Good point... I can see scratches within the on/off hole itself, but nothing terribly deep. I will take apart everything, clean, re-lube, and reassemble to see if I can see it more clearly.

If it's indeed damaged on/off hole, I guess there's nothing we can do to fix it, except for a new valve, ya?

[ideinit]

My bet would be a nice scratch inside of the on/off hole...

So I took apart the valve and cleaned everything up, especially around the on/off hole. I took a bunch of photos, highlighting the damages I can see. The highlighted scratches are relatively light, nothing too deep.



Please let me know what you think Tuna.

[Sandman]

Just tossing this out there,
You can get leaks from this area created by the regulator pin assembly not being held well together by the c-clip or issues with the orings on it.
It will seem like an on/off leak and you will go crazy trying to find it. It will leak with and without the trigger pulled. It will seem like its coming from under the frame. It does not always vent out the hole in the valve. It can be inconsistent or change slightly each time you gas up the gun, because the assembly will adjust slightly each gas up. Typically with this issue it will make the on/off sprinkler effect too, again making you feel it's in the on/off. But trust me it can be that assembly.
Your issue may not involve that assembly at all, but it's always worth a look.

[nak81783]

Just tossing this out there,
You can get leaks from this area created by the regulator pin assembly not being held well together by the c-clip or issues with the orings on it.
It will seem like an on/off leak and you will go crazy trying to find it. It will leak with and without the trigger pulled. It will seem like its coming from under the frame. It does not always vent out the hole in the valve. It can be inconsistent or change slightly each time you gas up the gun, because the assembly will adjust slightly each gas up. Typically with this issue it will make the on/off sprinkler effect too, again making you feel it's in the on/off. But trust me it can be that assembly.
Your issue may not involve that assembly at all, but it's always worth a look.

This would be coupled with erratic velocity, correct, since the dump chamber pressure would vary considerably?

ideinit, how are your velocity strings?

[audioSLAVE]

I would send this to Tuna to have him confirm or isolate any issue before buying a new valve.

[nak81783]

Is it just me, or does that bigger scratch appear to be right where the bottom on/off oring seals?

There has to be an epoxy, JB Weld, or something that can be used to patch that scratch. Heck, I'd try a light coat of superglue before buying a new valve.

[Tunaman]

Is it just me, or does that bigger scratch appear to be right where the bottom on/off oring seals?

There has to be an epoxy, JB Weld, or something that can be used to patch that scratch. Heck, I'd try a light coat of superglue before buying a new valve.

I usually use epoxy. It usually works if you sand it real good.

[nak81783]

I usually use epoxy. It usually works if you sand it real good.

You literally have seen it all, haven't you?

What normally causes this? Being too aggressive with a pick to remove orings?