why doesn't every new Automag look like this?

[Patron God of Pirates]

I'll buy one of your books.

[luke]

Likes or polls never translate into sales by the numbers, it's right about 20% you can hope for.

[luke]

You will notice that the title of this thread isn't, "Why doesn't Luke make new fancy Automags?" I asked about AGD.

Last I checked this was an open forum, are you suggesting because I make parts my points aren't valid or that I'm not allowed to have an opinion? Truth is I have a real good idea of how this works in this market.

In my mind, I'm not asking someone else to gamble large sums of money. AGD is a business.

LOL, that's funny, the money they spend is still coming out of their own pockets, and they have a reasonable Idea of how long it will be tied up in inventory.

[RogueFactor]

Thanks, Rogue. I really loved your stuff when you had it around. I nearly bought a Paradigm when you were selling them. Still kinda mad I never did. And I honestly surprised AGD hasn't borrowed more from your designs.

Its always good to hear apprection, thanks.Paradigms were an attempt to put together a basic package that met what you are looking for. They werent as fancy as yours is with that spiffy frame. But, because most were basic gloss black, they were meant to be a finished package that looked like there was a purpose to the assembly. Most of the design was based on AGD form.

[rawbutter]

I'll buy one of your books.

Thanks. I appreciate it. You can actually still get it on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Cornerstone-P...diamantopoulos

[luke]

I see what you did right there! (lol) (Just purchased your book.)

[keiko_819]

Everyone wants options but no one wants to pay for them...

[Nobody]

I do actually grasp the reality of this. I've done the numbers. And if I had $100,000 to invest, I would do this in a heartbeat. I think I could double my money in a few years.

But like I said above, this isn't an idea for a pre-order one-off piece. I'm not talking about a limited run. I'm talking about redesigning the Automag to appeal to a larger market.

Although....you know, while we're on the subject, I think some of you who are dissing this idea are letting your own experience with pre-orders and custom pieces affect your expectations. And that's not a fair comparison.

Let's be honest. Most custom pieces "fail" in one sense or another. Most often, they don't seem to sell enough for the seller to justify doing it again. But just because one custom piece doesn't sell well doesn't mean that every new custom piece will do as badly.

Take Luke's Deflator, for instance. It's a great marker. I've shot one. But it was offered in very small numbers, so of course the price per unit was very high. That limits the market. Plus, Deflators were sold raw, which further limits the market. Most buyers don't want to go through the hassle of researching an anodizer, sending off pieces, and waiting for returns.

I don't know how many Deflators were sold, but let's say it was 100. I know we can't go back to do it again, but I'm honestly curious what would have happened if Luke had built 1000 instead, and had them all anodized (at a discounted price, probably). The cost point would have come down considerably. And he might have easily sold 1000 instead of struggling to sell 100.

And just so you know I'm not picking on Luke (honestly, I only picked the Deflator because it's the most recent custom build I can think of), I'll give you another example. Five years ago, I quit my teaching job to self-publish a fantasy novel. Now, it didn't go so well. I invested about $6,000 into editing, business expenses, marketing, etc...not to mention all the lost wages from not working a real job for five years. And the novel basically failed. I've still got a few hundred novels in my basement that I can't sell. But that doesn't mean that every other future book I write will fail. And it certainly doesn't mean that every other self-published novel will fail. It simply means that my novel wasn't very good, or maybe I just didn't market it enough and get enough exposure.

I think the same logic applies here. Just because other ideas have failed doesn't mean that this idea will.

And as proof, I offer this.

On Saturday, I finished this pneumag and immediately posted a poorly-taken photo on Facebook. So far, it has received about 120 Likes and a few dozen comments. Now, that doesn't seem like much, but compare that to AGD's post from last year when they released the SandFX markers. Their debut post received about 200 Likes and, which, yeah...that's more than mine, but still....mine's in the same ballpark.

I'm not saying this to pat myself on the head. I'm just saying I think there's a market for something like this. And that market is growing.

Grasping a concept and putting actual numbers at something is the only way to see the scope of an endeavor like putting together a complete new or updated gun.

1)where do update, or what do you update? As simple as that is, it is the most important stepping stone for this. Understanding and addressing what can be improved on a design and then putting together an idea of where the designer goes to. Where to do that on a mag? Where do you start? The valve? The rail? The frame is already refreshed, but a new 1 piece gas through foregrip? Find that answer, an answer where you will not only please enough of the old crowd, but get the new blood, the most important blood for growing a product.

2) get your idea to paper (or at least a CAD program). Anyone can draw, but you have a paralax here. Do you redesign everything, so its proprietary to that design (a la the original RT) or do you incorporate enough of the old, so as to not cut off the older crowd, but get them excited enough to buy and show the new blood (again) that this design is relavent). So whatever the idea, you give it to the designer, who then puts the concept down, making sure that dimensions work correctly in wharever direction it goes, that the parts can be proofed (either 3d printing or machining them as a concept proof). You need to see where tolerance are, where the best place to put screw holes or attachment points are, how parts fit together. BTW, both the designer and the machinist gets paid. These jobs take time, effort and money. So you are already in the hole before a chip has flown.

3) suppliers, suppliers and suppliers. If you are selling a complete product, you need parts, screws, every little thing that the people take for granted cost money, a lot of it. This is where you also decide how many of those redesigned parts will be made. Not only will you pay for every screw, you also pay for the shipping to you. For example, we will call the redesigned product the "N-ULE"(for Next ULE body - kinda like that!). You need new field strip screws, say $2/per no quanties, flat price but you will include a new front screw. 100x 18-8 stainless 10-32 3/8ths screws are $5.73 for 100, and 50x 316 stainless 10-32 3/8ths screws are $8.48. So do you go with more quantities but not corrosion resistant or the best screw possible. And at 1000 screws, that is 10 boxes at $57.30 plus shipping. But you better get an 11th, cause you will loose one or 2. So add that $57 plus the $2 grand for the special fieldstrip screw and you are talking real money here. Don't forget that the designer and the machinist gets paid.

4) making chips. After you finalize the design, who is going to make it for you? You'll get quotes and all of those cheaper overseas/Asian machine shops look real good. Cheap prices, but you are dealing with someone who may not speak english as a 1st language, may not understand what you are doing, may not care to put 100% into it, or even use the best quality materials or tooling, regardless of what they may say. Add in the delays with shipping overseas, like a month's wait from the time they ship it, till you get it and then you never know if the sample they made is close to the production parts.

If you go with local, you can have the exact same problems, but generally at a higher cost. You may get someone local, so you can visit them, yet it will still cost you in some ways. Don't forget that problems may occur qhere the machinist is unaware of a problem, doesn't care about a problem, or a mistake was made somewhere in the process from slug tomilling, to tumbling to shipped product.

Also, not many companies can afford to have their own machinary, know how to run it, or have the personel capable of doing so, not at paintball prices. The 1000 "NULE" bodies may end up costing $15000 at this point, if not more.

5) to finish or not to finish. Every little bit of the gun/part is scrutinized. If you go with polished, time and more money it will cost. If a dusted or matte type finish, then not as much as polishing, yet will players buy that? You are literally guessing in what will sell and what won't. Its incredibly hard to not only pay for product before you know what will sell, but also conversely keep product on hand for every contingency. Inception Designs, does do 1 thing with options. Most parts can be had either finished (anno'd matte black, sometimes polished black) or raw, giving the player the option of choice. Yet having inventory not selling is a kick in the groin.

6) finiahing part 2. You decide to go with raw and black. Raw parts do need to be checked for fit and finish (can't sell blemished parts), and finished parts need to be, well finished. In the case of the 'NULE' body, that means checking clearences, adding in the C-clip for the valve and if you are selling complete guns, completing the guns. Sure, a gun might take you 10min to go from pile to together, now multiply that 100, 200, or 400 guns. That is a lot of time, just handling that. That is not on the phone, doing customer service or talking to places to distribute your productz, not looking at forums seeing what people want, not waiting at the PO to ahip orders, or even box up orders. With a 1 or 2 person operation, which AGD is, that is a huge amoint of time.

6) the end result. Add up all of that time. 2-4 months for design to be CAD'd and inspected, weeks dealing with suppliers and quotes, month(s) for machining, month(s) for finishing, weeks on testing, fitting and checking those products out. The money spent, well, no one knows till someone does actually look at it, but one thing you can count on, is in bulk, it takes a metric tonne of money. Anytime you think it doesn't, you have no clue on what it takes.

So, you want a new product? Try using the new X frame instead of the DYI method you used. Not saying it is wrong, but by supporting the factory, you are telling the factory to make more because you are taking theor stock and putting it to use. Buy new, buy from AGD or Tuna and support the company. 2nd hand is great but it doesn't help make new parts.

[vintage]

I can vouch for #4 above.

[rawbutter]

So, you want a new product? Try using the new X frame instead of the DYI method you used. Not saying it is wrong, but by supporting the factory, you are telling the factory to make more because you are taking theor stock and putting it to use. Buy new, buy from AGD or Tuna and support the company. 2nd hand is great but it doesn't help make new parts.

I did almost buy an x-frame, but I'm poor, and cost is always a factor. (The x-frame is almost $100 more than what I paid for the NT frame.) Also, and more importantly, the x-frame isn't as mod-friendly. There are no brackets inside to mount things. And there's no rail on the bottom of the sleeper ASA set-up I designed.

Hopefully for the next project.

[ScottyBeans]

Is the x-frame notably different than the intelliframe besides the trigger selection?

I do think the new triggers are pretty cool. And the Intelli is an awesome frame in general.

[awo702]

Is the x-frame notably different than the intelliframe besides the trigger selection?

I do think the new triggers are pretty cool. And the Intelli is an awesome frame in general.

The intellis' were really nice. Glad I still got a couple.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rawbutter]

Is the x-frame notably different than the intelliframe besides the trigger selection?

It's lighter, I think, and it has less material inside. And it has a few extra holes for mounting things, I think.

Intelliframe:


X-frame:


And yes, I agree that the Intelliframe is great. I've had a few myself. But they look best with shorter rails, IMHO, which aren't as comfortable with longer rails.

Again, I'm nit-picking, but that's what the Internet is for, right?

[TwilightG]

I love the look of the new X Frame. I hate that it's only available in matte black though. Would've been nice if at least raw was available for custom ano.

[captian pinky]

Am i the only one that cringes when i see a frame cut with a dremel?

[Nobody]

Am i the only one that cringes when i see a frame cut with a dremel?

Yes and no. The hack-masters that have no skill or don't put in any thought to it. Yes, its horrid results. But there are some that can cut straight lines and no beautiful work with a dremil.

But the 1st 2 questions should always be, before you cut anything is: should i do this? And can i get the part already cut?

[elgalloblanco]

I remember a thread where mr Kaye was talking about making what people say they want and getting stuck with the inventory once it's time to put their money where their mouth was. That has always stuck with me.

That and I like the RT foregrips best.