Mag use in 2019's big mech Events

[Gundam V]

I understand your position from a company standpoint. However, I will say "better" is certainly a matter of opinion in this discussion.

In this case I don't see how this is a matter of opinion. You have a valve system with a fast recharge and the other does not. Objectively, the rt valve is better than the classic valve. Even if you made them both from aluminum, the rt valve would still be a better performer. The cherry on top is since it based on pressure you can control whether you have an rt effect or not

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[JKR]

In this case I don't see how this is a matter of opinion. You have a valve system with a fast recharge and the other does not. Objectively, the rt valve is better than the classic valve. Even if you made them both from aluminum, the rt valve would still be a better performer. The cherry on top is since it based on pressure you can control whether you have an rt effect or not

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Uhhh…

The Classic valve will reliably recharge faster than the electro capped rate at these events. Your argument is invalid.

The Classic valve is better in the sense that it is simpler, has a couple less moving parts, and doesn't care what pressure you feed it - it won't go RT.

[Gundam V]

What's does electros have to do with this? We're talking about classic valves and rt valves. So the classic valve doesn't have an rt effect, doesn't change the fact that the rt is a better performing valve. The only thing I can think of that classic will do that the rt shouldn't is take CO2 as a propelant. Aside from that, looking at everything else between the classic and rt valve, the rt is a better performing valve.

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[JKR]

What's does electros have to do with this? We're talking about classic valves and rt valves. So the classic valve doesn't have an rt effect, doesn't change the fact that the rt is a better performing valve. The only thing I can think of that classic will do that the rt shouldn't is take CO2 as a propelant. Aside from that, looking at everything else between the classic and rt valve, the rt is a better performing valve.

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We are talking about Automags being used in mech events.

You tried to argue that because the Classic valve doesn't recharge as fast as the RT that it is somehow inferior for these mech events. My point it, the Classic valve recharges faster than necessary at said mech events...including the capped rate of Electros at the events. Your point that the Classic valve is inferior to the RT valve in mech events (the point of this thread to begin with) is invalid.

[JKR]

Classic valves recharge between 15-18 cycles a second. If you are exceeding that at a mech event, you are cheating and defeating the purpose of the mech event.

[Gundam V]

I never said that. Yes, I said that the rt valve is superior to the classic mag valve. But I never said that the classic mag valve couldn't be used for the mech tournament. You said and I quote, "the solution I would like to see but know it will never happen...aluminum "classic" valves being released!" Sandman than said, "Never going to happen from AGD. Costs basically the same to produced and the X-valve is quite better." Than you said, "I understand your position from a company standpoint. However, I will say "better" is certainly a matter of opinion in this discussion."

All I'm saying I don't see how this is a matter of opinion, when objectively the rt valve is superior and that I don't see the point of making an aluminum classic valve when the x-valve which performs better already exists.

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[Gundam V]

I didn't mean for this to sound like I'm trying to undermine you, nor am I trying to be an a-hole toward you. I'm just trying to understand the reason of why you said better is certainly a matter of opinion in this discussion.

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[JKR]

It is your opinion that the rt valve is superior because you define superior as recharging faster.

I define superior as something else...a slightly simpler design that can be used in said tournaments without any questions, issues, or possible accusations of cheating.

Your definition of superior, recharge rate, is moot for these mech events as the recharge rate of the Classic valve can far exceed the parameters of the mech events. Not only that, but its recharge rate exceeds human ability to shoot a single trigger, mechanical 'gun. For these reasons, I maintain your definition of "superior" is invalid.

[JKR]

Not trying to be an a-hole to you either. My point is only that for mech tourney events, the original topic of this discussion, the definition of "better" is subjective when comparing the two valves.

I won't argue one bit if you are saying the RT valve is better for walkable semi play, open play RT shenanigans and, of course, electro duties when discussing the mighty EMAG.

[Gundam V]

Ok, now that you clarified how your defining better, I'm understanding where your coming from. Also, I want to clarify my point as well, I wasn't just thinking about recharge as in just shooting fast, recharge matters if your the kind of person that rides the trigger *cough* someone like me *cough*, it helps that when I use rt valves. With classic valves I tend to not practice good trigger discipline, rt is really not a concern in that aspect. Also the fact that you can lighten the trigger with a ule trigger kit is a boon for x-valve owners. Back to point though, I now get the angle that your coming from. Thanks for clarifying the context of "better" in the conversation.

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[Sandman]

JKR, I can completely see where you are coming from. In context I agree. There is at least one thing you'd want to do with a classic valve. Replace the classic rail and sear with the pinned rail and sear from the RT style. This is much more stable and creates a more solid trigger pull action. Of course you can add a level 10 to the classic valve and then you pretty much have all you need.

I'd love to have some classic aluminum valves. They would be fun to have, Just not feasible to run them.

[raiderpb]

Can someone give me a definitive definition of "RT" and how this constitues a Reactive Trigger?

It is my understanding that RT = ReTro valve. Also, according to this thread a Reactive Trigger requires modifying the Automag outside of manufacturer specs.

I am trying to get my markers ready for the MSPA and the rules specifically call out Automag RT.
"All MSPA events are mechanical markers only and must fire by the activation of a pneumatic switch and must only shoot one shot for each complete action on pulling and releasing the trigger.
Auto mag RT’S are not allowed at any event nor are the double trigger conversion "

[Gundam V]

Can someone give me a definitive definition of "RT" and how this constitues a Reactive Trigger?

It is my understanding that RT = ReTro valve. Also, according to this thread a Reactive Trigger requires modifying the Automag outside of manufacturer specs.

I am trying to get my markers ready for the MSPA and the rules specifically call out Automag RT.
"All MSPA events are mechanical markers only and must fire by the activation of a pneumatic switch and must only shoot one shot for each complete action on pulling and releasing the trigger.
Auto mag RT’S are not allowed at any event nor are the double trigger conversion "

RTs aren't outside of manufacturers spec that I'm aware of. That's why its called RT, some of the other more knowledgable peeps on here can tell you the specifics. But what I do know is that the RT is input pressure sensitive. What I mean by that is at 600-750, the RT valve will shoot semi just fine. Anything higher will make reactive trigger more prevalent and easier to activate. If I missed anything I'm sure someone will correct me.

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[Fred]

Question: How are they viewing pneumatic triggers? Mine does not RT/run away/sweet spot at all (I think I'm running 800psi into it), safety works (yay), but its definitely walkable and in the right hands could most definitely rip sustained strings of high teens I'm sure.

[vintage]

Can someone give me a definitive definition of "RT" and how this constitues a Reactive Trigger?

It is my understanding that RT = ReTro valve. Also, according to this thread a Reactive Trigger requires modifying the Automag outside of manufacturer specs.

I am trying to get my markers ready for the MSPA and the rules specifically call out Automag RT.
"All MSPA events are mechanical markers only and must fire by the activation of a pneumatic switch and must only shoot one shot for each complete action on pulling and releasing the trigger.
Auto mag RT’S are not allowed at any event nor are the double trigger conversion "

this reads like they know nothing about the factory function of an RT style valve and are only going off of what they have seen/heard from modified valves.

get with Sandman and have him talk to the people running the event.

[the123]

No battery, 1 shot per pull + no bouncing double shots if you gently pull on the trigger when the ref (or event organizer) checks it, i'd say you are legal. I think some people have a preconceived notion that all RT's will go into 'runaway' on demand. When that simply isn't the case. That's a malfunction.

[Konigballer]

this reads like they know nothing about the factory function of an RT style valve and are only going off of what they have seen/heard from modified valves.

get with Sandman and have him talk to the people running the event.

The ghostly spectre of the RT Classic still looms large after 20+ years...

I shoot both every time I play. However, I'm actually of the same mind as JKR on the Classic Valve being superior, except for weight, over the RT/X Valve for modern tourney and recball play. It's simpler and less finicky (at least in my experience), has no trigger bounce to scare event organizers and refs, and with a preset tank is often shows more velocity consistency over the chrony. The 10.5 bps cap is almost universal at this point, so the RT/Valve's faster recharge rate really doesn't mean anything except for maybe scenario games were the rules are lax, or backyard fun. It's like saying "My Formula 1 car is faster/better than your Nascar stock car." Well, sure it is, except you aren't allowed to race in NASCAR with it so it's meaningless. I know it won't happen, but a aluminum Classic valve would be awesome!

Just yesterday I got a compliment from a regular at my home field after I gogged him in a couple games, and his hopper in another, with my plane-jane Classic valve mag. He was really amazed how accurate it was shooting. I was using crap field paint overbored with a old 10in Perfect Bore barrel, and somehow that thing was just ball on ball all day. It was averaging +-3 to 4 fps over the chrono, because "Quality Always Shoots Straight"!

[Walking Stick]

Wow, someone needs to update those MSPA organizers about the 1996 Automag RT and set them straight. They were probably Autococker fanbois back in the day and never bothered to educate themselves.

[Nobody]

It's more of the spectre of uninformed versus actual knowledge of the gun/setup. Most are more familiar with Tippmann RTs, about adding in a part to make the trigger rod return.

Raiderpb: 1st, RTs are referred to the classic automag RT, not specifically the ReTro valve or the factory offering of RT ULE, which is a basic Xvalve in a RT length rail. 2nd, stock, 650-800psi, the stock on/off will not bounce but will retain a nice snappy trigger. 3rd, the double trigger just allows you to sweetspot the trigger so it can go RT. So if anything, take your gun how you want it, expect them to question it, and expect to use something else if they flat out ban it. Sure, you can put a stock on/off(.750" on/off pin), a cf frame and dare people to get it to go reactive, but i really doubt that will happen.