Hybrid RTP Rails

[jbtamu1011]

LUKE!!!! The Hybrid Slimline rail looks so much better in person, the pictures don't do it justice. Great job on the rail and thanks for the quick turnaround. Looking forward to seeing how this one turns out when I get it anodized.

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Yes the Hybrid Slimline looks so great in person!! I got the 9.1in version my minimag I'm piecing together. How does one go about selecting an anodize that will suit?!? That's such a tough part of the build. I can't decide!!

[luke]

I'm officially discontinuing my Automag and RTP rails as of today. From here forward I will only be manufacturing Hybrid style rails.
Thanks for all the orders to help me phase these out.

[jbtamu1011]

I'm officially discontinuing my Automag and RTP rails as of today. From here forward I will only be manufacturing Hybrid style rails.
Thanks for all the orders to help me phase these out.

I think you have a winner with the hybrids.

[Gundam V]

Yes the Hybrid Slimline looks so great in person!! I got the 9.1in version my minimag I'm piecing together. How does one go about selecting an anodize that will suit?!? That's such a tough part of the build. I can't decide!!

That's the fun part that you can agonize over. Personally, I think an acid wash anodize would go nicely. Now you see why peeps can have multiple mags, cause it's so hard choosing just one.

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[Gundam V]

I'm officially discontinuing my Automag and RTP rails as of today. From here forward I will only be manufacturing Hybrid style rails.
Thanks for all the orders to help me phase these out.

It's a rail that works and looks good as well as works with any body style. Is there any reason to keep two separate lines? This keeps it nice and simple having 1 rail style rather than 2.

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[luke]

It's a rail that works and looks good as well as works with any body style. Is there any reason to keep two separate lines? This keeps it nice and simple having 1 rail style rather than 2.

From a production and inventory stand point definitely not. Also, with all the various T-Rex builds I've done I found that the Automag sears are definitely slower than the RTP sear builds. I understand why AGD may want to support the AM line but comparing my numbers on what sells best its a no brainer, and so lopsided in fact that making the decision is pretty easy. That said, the Wave rail design sold very well but it was only available with the AM sear design. I'll get around to a Hybrid Wave rail sometime next year..

[Nobody]

I couldn't disagree more with those statements, so much so that I have no interest in a discussion about it with you. You're more than a little wrong about adjustable shocks, obviously you're not a car guy or into motor sports based on your view. There's plenty of information out there if you actually want to understand why they exist.

You can label this new rail design in or out of spec, it makes no difference to me, it's little more than a trivial point of view. I'm sure there are a few Emag guys that are happy that they have access to old designs that have never been available for the Emag, plus any new designs that will eventually come along. Adjusting the solenoid is an irrelevant price to pay for some guys and those that worry about making the adjustment can skip the rail all together, that's okay too.

I've only built a half dozen vehicles but you didn't know that. Obviously, you are taking the literal sense not the figurative, as yes adjusting the shocks for the higher end vehicles or applications can and does make a difference, but i am alluding more to the fact that you pick up the emag and play, not monkey with it, taking it apart, to make some adjustment. Having adjustability and needing adjustability are 2 totally different and separate things. Look at PE and their lack of LPRs on the ego line. Fully adjustable down to no adjustment.

But it only seems that you'll talk only to those that fluff up your ego, tell you that you do no wrong and everything you do is "awesome". You take what i may have to say, as pure hatred, which it is not. I have and will call a spade a spade, when i see something i question, i ask. You think i do this because i want to, i like to do it. I don't. I actually want you to better yourself and your products. Hell, make something i want and i will buy it. Then you can make me eat crow all day, every day for it.

[luke]

but i am alluding more to the fact that you pick up the emag and play, not monkey with it, taking it apart, to make some adjustment. Having adjustability and needing adjustability are 2 totally different and separate things. Look at PE and their lack of LPRs on the ego line. Fully adjustable down to no adjustment.

That argument makes no sense, if you switch to a Hybrid rail you adjust the solenoid plunger once and your done. Why in the world would you insinuate other wise?

But it only seems that you'll talk only to those that fluff up your ego, tell you that you do no wrong and everything you do is "awesome". You take what i may have to say, as pure hatred, which it is not. I have and will call a spade a spade, when i see something i question, i ask. You think i do this because i want to, i like to do it. I don't.

This is the exact reason I have no patience for you and have no desire to have a dialog with you. You argue points with no merit. You try to pick apart every decision I make in regard design and engineering. You have it in your mind that I somehow need to clarify everything I do with you, like its your right somehow. This idea that I'm looking to have my ego stroked is absurd and something you say just to get a rise out of me. Based on your track record with me, I've come to the conclusion that all you really want is to stir the pot. Throwing insults back and forth is very easy, practicing restraint is the hard part.

I actually want you to better yourself and your products. Hell, make something i want and i will buy it. Then you can make me eat crow all day, every day for it.

Man that's conceded to say the least and there in lies the problem between us. It honestly doesn't matter to me if you like my parts or not, I know a great deal of people don't, and that's okay. I've said this to you before, but I'll say it again, I design and manufacture parts I like and if I'm lucky there are other people out there with similar tastes. This is not a corporate business model where the target is the largest customer base possible, that has never been my motivation. Buy my parts or not, I'm good with it either way.

[jbtamu1011]

[mobsterboy]

but i am alluding more to the fact that you pick up the emag and play, not monkey with it, taking it apart, to make some adjustment. Having adjustability and needing adjustability are 2 totally different and separate things. Look at PE and their lack of LPRs on the ego line. Fully adjustable down to no adjustment.

That argument makes no sense, if you switch to a Hybrid rail you adjust the solenoid plunger once and your done. Why in the world would you insinuate other wise?

Asking as an Emag noob: is the plunger adjustment something that needs to be done a lot? I know I've almost never needed to adjust my am/mm or rt pro sear arm length, so maybe I'm just not as experienced in the emag department.

[luke]

You really have to ask yourself what the argument is actually about, does Nobody really want me to discontinue the Hybrid Rail line and dump 100 slug rails in the recycle bin all over a simple adjustment? Bottom line is the plunger adjustment argument is just silly and little more than pot stirring and most everyone here knows it.

If you look at the Automag platform as a whole and compare the plunger adjustment in that equation, it's no more difficult than anything else associated with Auto Mags, NEW yes, but not difficult. On a scale of 1-10 (10 being the hardest) the solenoid plunger adjustment would be a 2, and it gets that because you need a set of calipers.

Tunaman, AGD and myself are aware of the adjustment, and I'm sure Big Evil will get wind of it soon enough. So the 3 big Automag tech guys (Tunaman, AGD, BigEvil) can easily handle this adjustment and I'll do the adjustment for free with the purchase of a Hybrid rail. Quit frankly I would wager that the biggest percentage of AOers can handle this without blinking an eye.

This too wiil be absorbed into the Automag culture and will become common knowledge as everything else has.

Moving on...

[Loguzzzzzz]

The plunger length seams to be to be an oversight or mistake in your design which probably only came to light when someone put a Hybrid rail on an Emag and it didn't function. This is the reason for designing to SPEC. This makes a part purely interchangeable. It is certainly your prerogative to design how you see fit.. This disclaimer at this juncture makes it appear to be a design flaw that you didn't consider or else it would have been addressed in the OP! Now that it is out there when an Emag owner wants to switch from his / her Hybrid rail to any other rail that has been produced in the history of MAGDOM he / she will have an adjustment to be made where one has never been made before!

Please just admit it was an oversight (like it was) and move on! There plenty of aftermarket part in many other forms (e.g. hobbies, sports...) that take place when NON STOCK parts in installed but those are USUALLY stated in the installation instructions not months after introduction of said parts because a flaw in the design was found!

[luke]

That's partly true and I have no problem saying so. When I first started down this path on the new design that was one of the first things I saw as being a potential problem. As the idea, designs and prototyping progressed it slipped my mind. But it wasn't a deterrent then or now. One of my first customers found performance issues with the Emag and I knew right away what it was. He's a newbie and didn't want to adjust the plunger so he's returning the rail for a refund. Emags are a very small part of the AGD line and I have no intention of changing the design just for Emags.

I have no intention of changing or dumping this line now or on future production runs because to make a shorter rail with the RTP sear this is the result. Take it or leave it.

[mobsterboy]

You really have to ask yourself what the argument is actually about, does Nobody and Mobsterboy really want me to discontinue the Hybrid Rail line and dump 100 slug rails in the recycle bin all over a simple adjustment? Bottom line is the plunger adjustment argument is just silly and little more than pot stirring and most everyone here knows it.

Not sure where you came up with this. I was merely asking a question to the general public about plunger adjustment frequency, for my own knowledge.

Kindly remove my name from your rant here.

[luke]

I reread your comment and I took it wrong. But saying my statements are a rant is silly.

[luke]

I was merely asking a question to the general public about plunger adjustment frequency, for my own knowledge.

I would say likely never unless someone messed with it, but that's a guess. Tunaman and Big Evil are the tech guys so they would be the ones to answer that.

[Loguzzzzzz]

I would say likely never unless someone messed with it, but that's a guess. Tunaman and Big Evil are the tech guys so they would be the ones to answer that.

They should NEVER need adjustment but over time the Locktite and the lock nut may come loose and the vibration from shooting the gun may cause a little slippage, or as I stated above should the Emag owner want to switch rails. Let's face it, that is half the fun of owning a Mag, the modular nature (of them) and switching the look every once in a while.

The hardest part about this adjustment is owning a set of digital calipers (which not everyone may have).

[luke]

They should NEVER need adjustment but over time the Locktite and the lock nut may come loose and the vibration from shooting the gun may cause a little slippage, or as I stated above should the Emag owner want to switch rails. Let's face it, that is half the fun of owning a Mag, the modular nature (of them) and switching the look every once in a while.

The hardest part about this adjustment is owning a set of digital calipers (which not everyone may have).

This is obviously a builders choice, you can choose to make the adjustment and have access to all the new rails designs or not, I cant put it any plainer than that. Trying to start an argument about adjusting the solenoid plunger is just childish. This rail is obviously not for you, and that's okay.

[Loguzzzzzz]

This is obviously a builders choice, you can choose to make the adjustment and have access to all the new rails designs or not, I cant put it any plainer than that. Trying to start an argument about adjusting the solenoid plunger is just childish. This rail is obviously not for you, and that's okay.

How is this trying to start an argument. I was merely answering mobsterboy's question... I even gave an example how they could come out of adjustment during regular usage.

Unless I read your reply incorrectly you seem to be a little defensive.

Personally I rarely change the look of my Mags I usually just build another one. Like most I have complete mags (in parts) on my bench at any time. Some may not have that option though.

[luke]

How is this trying to start an argument.

That statement was also based on your previous comment.

Unless I read your reply incorrectly you seem to be a little defensive.

Defensive? Definitely not, I guess you missed the

[Nobody]

That argument makes no sense, if you switch to a Hybrid rail you adjust the solenoid plunger once and your done. Why in the world would you insinuate other wise?

The party trick of the mag is 2 screws and the gun comes apart. Allowing the user to switch out bodies, rails, frames, foregrips, whatever. It was not a design feature but people have taken that to be able to have 1 gun but a pump rail and/or emag lowers where the parts are swapped out as needed. Small minority, but people will do this.

Also, by being in spec, that means people can swap parts around as they wish. I am sure that most people will forget to adjust the plunger length, months or years down the line, as well as on the second hand market thus causing problems. Who wants that?

This is the exact reason I have no patience for you and have no desire to have a dialog with you. You argue points with no merit. You try to pick apart every decision I make in regard design and engineering. You have it in your mind that I somehow need to clarify everything I do with you, like its your right somehow. This idea that I'm looking to have my ego stroked is absurd and something you say just to get a rise out of me. Based on your track record with me, I've come to the conclusion that all you really want is to stir the pot. Throwing insults back and forth is very easy, practicing restraint is the hard part.

So either i am annoying or maybe i am correct? If you put up to the masses, to the forun what people will want, then do not blame the answers. If people question why you do somethign, do not blame the people if they find fault with how you designed something. Its you, by putting up, asking for input, that does not mean that 1 person gets listened to, while another is ignored. By you using this forum as a sounding board, you should not cherry pick the things you like. I play devil's advocate. Hopefully seeing a potential problem that you did not think of, but using years of experience, education and yes, opinion.

If i wanted to stur the pot, there are far better ways of doing it. I would hound you in every post, not where i have questions.

Man that's conceded to say the least and there in lies the problem between us. It honestly doesn't matter to me if you like my parts or not, I know a great deal of people don't, and that's okay. I've said this to you before, but I'll say it again, I design and manufacture parts I like and if I'm lucky there are other people out there with similar tastes. This is not a corporate business model where the target is the largest customer base possible, that has never been my motivation. Buy my parts or not, I'm good with it either way.

So you are not a manufacturer? You do not have a business(ok, this may be a garage shop, no business license, or things like that) and do not make any money(not questioning profit margins here, you make what you make, no question on that) on anything that you do? So i guess you should take down your like, remove your manufacturer's banner and the like.

Your ego, by only making what you like, means you are ignoring what the market wants, what could or would sell, only cause you don't like something. That is well, stupid. Who doesn't want to not only make money, but have that pay for your hobbies? Why not look at something that would sell, or what people want so that that could fund your side projects, knowing that their is an income from part A, so that part B can take the time to grow and flurish on its own?

[Nobody]

You really have to ask yourself what the argument is actually about, does Nobody really want me to discontinue the Hybrid Rail line and dump 100 slug rails in the recycle bin all over a simple adjustment? Bottom line is the plunger adjustment argument is just silly and little more than pot stirring and most everyone here knows it.

Quick statement. You never listened to me before why would i tell you to dump 100 rails?

But that os not the point. Everything made for a mag is based on a certain spec. By not using thst it becomes problematic when people swap around parts. Just because you don't move parts around, does not mean the public sticks to the same idea. Stay in spec, and no problems will occur.

If you look at the Automag platform as a whole and compare the plunger adjustment in that equation, it's no more difficult than anything else associated with Auto Mags, NEW yes, but not difficult. On a scale of 1-10 (10 being the hardest) the solenoid plunger adjustment would be a 2, and it gets that because you need a set of calipers.

Again, i do not need to adjust much of anything on a mag. Sure, L10s, ULE triggers do have adjustment, but none of them require digital calipers for them. Swapping a shim in or out, changing an oring are far easier than requiring a specific tool to adjust.

Tunaman, AGD and myself are aware of the adjustment, and I'm sure Big Evil will get wind of it soon enough. So the 3 big Automag tech guys (Tunaman, AGD, BigEvil) can easily handle this adjustment and I'll do the adjustment for free with the purchase of a Hybrid rail. Quit frankly I would wager that the biggest percentage of AOers can handle this without blinking an eye.

So will you be handling this adjustment under warranty? How long would you continue to do this? What about 2nd hand users getting yiur rails through a part out buy? Yeah, you think its easy but so was staying in spec with this.

This reminds me of thd MM9K fiasco. That was out of spec by a few thousandths and look were it got them...

[luke]

Spending any more time on this is fruitless, I've made my points and quite frankly it really doesn't matter if we see eye to eye. Argue it from any angle and it wont change anything, the Hybrid rail is a reality and I'm not changing it because of the Emag. Fact is Emag parts are by far the slowest moving ones I stock. They have been on the discontinue list for probably two years, when my current inventory is gone, that's it. Its very unlikely I will design or manufacture anything else for it, at least Emag rails will be available for those that dont have a problem adjusting the plunger.

I'm a one man band and these discussions just go in an endless circle and only robs me of time from doing any other work. I already spend a huge amount of my time corresponding with my customers across several boards, emails and private messages. I'm available to them (mostly) 7 days a week and all waking hours, I never clock out. I'm not complaining, just making a point that my time is better spent on other things. You accuse of cherry picking who I talk to here, which is actually true because those guys are buying parts and building markers. Most of which is being discussed privately so what you see is a very small snip-it of what's going on. So yea, I'm definitely playing favorites here. Some, if not most of these guys spend a lot of money on my stuff and deserve to be heard, so I try my best to take care of them.

[Nobody]

And if you build stuff that more than a "hand full" want, then more people would buy. Make something that would sell and people would buy it. Make something in spec, hence no special mods(however simple they may be) need to be taken and thus universal. Make something that everyone needs and then you profit. Very simple math, something i have been telling you for a while now. Amd make something i want and i would give you my money...

[JimBobFett]

I dont get what the emag deal is, but I thought I'd dump this here: Oh, BTW, I bought 3 and I'm buying 3 more this week of the newer designs. I thought part of the point was that this platform makes it easier to do small batches... 4 here, 8 there, etc. Kinda like sluggo bodies: use the same base to make kartas, dallaras, etc.

[mobsterboy]

I dont get what the emag deal is, but I thought I'd dump this here: Oh, BTW, I bought 3 and I'm buying 3 more this week of the newer designs. I thought part of the point was that this platform makes it easier to do small batches... 4 here, 8 there, etc. Kinda like sluggo bodies: use the same base to make kartas, dallaras, etc.

Holy Thumbscrew gap, Batman!

[luke]

Well I've always had slug rails but before I had to stock Automag and RTPro slug rails. Plus some AM designs were not available in the RTP version because they just looked bad. The Hybrid platform solves inventory and design issues all in one, and they just look better than both AM and RTP rails.

Your correct about the small batch too, I have streamlined rail production to the point I can offer a bunch of different designs and keep only a few of each on the shelf (I was doing this before too). When I run out or run low I can pull slug rails and replenish the supply a little at a time. This is part of the reason that makes it difficult to offer anodized parts. I would have to commit to a few designs and hope they sell, this way I can just make whatever is selling the best at the time (it constantly changes). It takes the guess work out of the equation and allows me to offer options and custom rail designs.

[luke]

Holy Thumbscrew gap, Batman!

I think its just a mock up, the thumb screws do sit flat on that frame, I would wager a dollar there's no rail bushing in that setup.

[JimBobFett]

I think its just a mock up, the thumb screws do sit flat on that frame, I would wager a dollar there's no rail bushing in that setup.

Yeah, whipped it together so fast I forgot the rail bushing! I'll put it together again tomorrow and see. Its probably why the valve looks a little crooked in this one too (thought it was just lens distortion at first):

[luke]

I'll need the length measurements, preferably pulled from center line of the thumb screw and front grip screw holes, forward and back.

If anyone wants one of these speak up. I'll probably only make these once, they wont be a stock item, and I doubt I'll make extras...