BlackVCG's ULT Thread

**Fritzy** · 08-11-2003, 10:56 PM

Quincymassguy - having too few shims in your LX does cause bolt stick. With too few shims, if the bolt is not allowed to move forward enough in the breech the stem cannot vent. This causes the bolt to hang, and is the reason shims are used. This can also cause it to hang if you place something (like a finger) right up against the bolt face, but not if you have your finger sitting a few centimeters off the face.

I have also experienced bolt stick when using too tight an o-ring carrier in the LX. If an extra shim doesn't stop the stick, try the next larger carrier. If it doesn't leak, that might solve your problem.

Scott

**QUINCYMASSGUY** · 08-11-2003, 11:53 PM

The thing that confuses me is that I had to remove a shim because when I put pressure on the trigger it was venting early, and it started doing that a little still with the ULE on/off so I took out another. I dunno, you may be right. I will play with it.

**BlackVCG** · 08-12-2003, 12:24 AM

You shouldn't need to play with the LX shims. If it works fine now and the leak is gone, then leave the LX alone.

You need to start looking at the sear and other things. Make sure the trigger rod has a gap inbetween it and the back of the trigger. Make sure that the ULT on/off pin assembly can move freely.

**Mr.Orange** · 08-12-2003, 01:00 AM

Hello all,

QuincyMassGuy,

I had a similar problem with my mag. I had a Stabuli ProConnect (SP?) on my marker, and when I gassed it up, the bolt would take forever to set. The bolt would just sit there, the trigger rod would stick for a long time, it was common for me to have to wait upwards of five minutes before the bolt would 'pop' out and then the marker fired fine.

So I replaced my ProConnect recently with a ACI On/Off and the problem went away, and tha mag was just better overall.

Maybe you have something restricting your air system? Tape/dirt in the valve? Just some thoughts...

James

**the larch** · 08-12-2003, 04:50 PM

And good thoughts they are. Same thing I was thinking. Something might be restricting air flow from the tank to the gun.

**Ohms Law** · 08-13-2003, 11:35 AM

This should be a classic thread.

**trex** · 08-13-2003, 07:09 PM

quincymassguy:

I'm having the same problem. I don't think its a level10 problem because like you said the trigger rod is not resetting. Like there's not enough pressure to push the on/off pin and reset the trigger/bolt. I have the problem after rapid fire and possible short strokes. Then if I wait a minute, pressure will build and reset the bolt/trigger. I can actually hear the hissing sound as the pressure builds. If my tank pressure is getting low, then it will not build at all. Is it possible that the on/off pin needs lubrication to be able to cycle through the O-rings in the on/off? LMK if anyone comes up with solutions. This is very frustrating, until I can get some consistent performance i'm sticking with my RTpro on/off and giving the ULT a big THUMBS DOWN (wasted $50)

**QUINCYMASSGUY** · 08-13-2003, 07:45 PM

Trex, what kind of tank are you using? I'm wondering if it is due to the presets not cranking out enough. If it is the case, I will be really annoyed cause I wouldn't have bought it if someone mentioned that.

I have lubed the pin, no real effect. And the sear is like new, I got it with the XValve I got a short time ago. And I rarely play. And I know the Lvl 10 is tuned right carrier-wise because it can still shoot but sticks a little with one lower and leaks with one higher. The shims I will look into. I am going to reassemble it and also try another person's preset on it but it's strange it didn't start really until I got the ULT.

Anyone else have a similar issue?

And I agree with the remark about consistent: If I wanted an inconsistent marker that always required adjusting... I would have bought an Autococker.

**Jerhew** · 08-13-2003, 08:09 PM

well i've set the pressure on my adjustable tank at 600psi and it still fires fine...
although it may still be part of your problem...id rule out it being your entire problem

did you try swapping in the extra orings that came with the ult..
it could be an o-ring tolerance issue...

and btw how many times have you cycled it?
sometimes things just need to be broken in
my ult was a little inconsistant at first...
but after going through about 3 tanks of air it seems fine

remember to make sure the entire valve is well lubricated(not just the on/off)
put 3 drops into the asa then put the tank back on and cycle the gun...

i cant think of anything else to try
like i said before try borrowing an adjustable tank from someone

you wouldnt happen to be using MICRO-line would you?
just checking

**trex** · 08-13-2003, 11:48 PM

quincymassguy:

I'm using a 68/3000 flatline set at approx 1000 psi. The problem does seem to happen more when my tank pressure gets below 1000. As for breaking in, i've put about 2 tanks through. I'll keep messing with it. My point of view is that if it hangs even once in a game, thats too much. With my current set up I haven't had even one broken ball and my gun never gives me a problem. If I have to pull the trigger with 2 more lbs of force to get that kind of reliability then so be it.

**speeddemon** · 08-13-2003, 11:55 PM

Ok, I might have a solution for you guys. I got my X-valve today, and was putting the ULT in with the LX at the same time. And at first I was getting the same kind of bolt stick as before, and it turned out the LX carrrier was doing it. I went with a bigger carrier and it shot perfect. I have all the shims in the ULT, and 1 in the LX. I do need to change the carrier back down now after putting several hoppers through it since the o-ring has settled in and started to leak. But maybe that will work for you.

**striker** · 08-15-2003, 04:40 PM

I have no idea if this is a ULT problem, but after installing my ULT (it RIPS by the way

) and firing a few tanks through it, my XRTP got a leak down the barrel, usually when I fire and hold the trigger back. Most of the time, the leak will stop if I hold the trigger back for 5 seconds or so, but sometimes it won't. Sometimes, it'll leak with just a little pressure on the trigger, and once it was leaking down the barrel with no pressure on the trigger. Any idea what the problem is? My XRTP came with the LX installed, and it hasn't given me a problem before the ULT was installed. I've also noticed that my bumper is in pretty bad shape, almost falling apart. Any help would be nice.

Also, as for the bolt-stick. I've noticed that occasionally the bolt would get stuck a few centimeters in the breech, and about 50% of the time pressure would build and the bolt resets. The other 50% I have to manually push the bolt back to reset it. Not really a big deal, but is this what you are talking about? Thanks!

**hobbesTZ** · 08-16-2003, 10:00 PM

I dunno if this has been covered yet...(56k is too slow to see everything)...But from what I've gathered, the ULT will work fine in a classic valve if you use enough shims.

**Grasshopper** · 08-16-2003, 10:16 PM

*sigh* I'm having the same problem. I gas the gun up, it fires like 5 times (without me pulling the trigger), then it settles. I can shoot like, twice, then it gets stick. I push the bolt back in, and I can fire once more. It gets stuck each time after that. I've tried from 2 shims all the way up to four and a LX shim. Same problem all the way through. I confused

**Jerhew** · 08-16-2003, 11:08 PM

that doesnt make much sense
basically the only thing that will cause that to happen
would be:
not enough tank pressure
on/off pin not moving freely enough
sear not moving freely enough

from what i've observed, it appears that the ult works better with higher tank output pressures(800-1000psi)

i think that makes sense because there's less surface area on the top of the pin pushing down so you need more force pushing on it to get the same speed...
can anyone that has more recent working knowledge of fluid dynamics comment on this?
it's been 6 years for me, so i'm a little rusty

you might just need to break your orings in...
my gun is a lot more consistant now than when i first installed my trigger...
after dry firing it a lot and adding 2-3 drops of lube into the asa every once in a while
it seemed to make things run smoother

never under-estimate the importance of lube
and i hope you're using a good high quality paintball/air tool lube
i remember when i first started out with my tippamn pro-lite...i used 3in1 oil in it! what a noob i was lol
i could figure out why my gun just wouldnt work
all it was, was me using the wrong kind of lube
as soon as i cleaned out all the 3in1 and used regular paintball lube...it has worked fine ever since
ok sorry for running on and on
hope this helps

**Grasshopper** · 08-17-2003, 12:11 AM

I'm still confused. I've tried just about every shim arrangment I can think of. I put my old on/off assy back in, and the gun shoots fine.

Only when I put in the ULT, and shoot, the bolt sticks forward. I REALLY wanna get this thing working. Please, anyone?

**afrankart** · 08-17-2003, 07:36 AM

My bolt sticks on occasion, and I was told that if you smack the back of your valve kinda hard with the palm of your hand, it will reset your bolt. This works for me, and the more I play with it, the less it sticks.

**SlipknotX556** · 08-17-2003, 10:46 AM

Thanks Black, the pics have helped me. Now if you can get that install video up, I will love you... I dont want to have to send you my mag to get the ult installed

**Jerhew** · 08-17-2003, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by SlipknotX556
Thanks Black, the pics have helped me. Now if you can get that install video up, I will love you... I dont want to have to send you my mag to get the ult installed

dude
honetly its a breeze to install(as long as you didn't have a single o-ring retro valve like i did...)

there are a few people here who seem to be having some problems getting it to work reliably and we still haven't completely figured out why
but on the whole
it's rediculously easy

**Grasshopper** · 08-18-2003, 01:10 AM

*sigh*
I had to be one of those few

**QUINCYMASSGUY** · 08-18-2003, 08:14 PM

Yeah, I'm definitely not the only one having this issue and it definitely started the minute the ULT trigger was added. So basically my Mag is unreliable now, and I am not playing until I resolve this because showing up to Boston Paintball paying $80/case and risking not having a working gun to use isn't worth it.

Tuning it was easy, but something else is the reason for this.

**Grasshopper** · 08-18-2003, 11:12 PM

Yea... Maybe there was a batch of bad ULTs? Or something? I only know of a few (10 or so?) peolpe having this problem. I really hope I can get this working soon.

**QUINCYMASSGUY** · 08-21-2003, 12:02 PM

I was just thinking... has anyone had the same issue of rapid fire cause the bolt to not reset or gassing it up causing the sear to not reset? The issue of chargeup not gassing didn't happen until the first time I had it go down during a game. I'm wondering if...

It initially starts by a chuff where it pushes the bolt forward just a little and the carrier causes bolt stick or some air remains from the level 10. Because the spring tension and stored energy in the spring is minimal from it not even getting a quarter of the way into the breech that the spring isn't pushing back enough to get the bolt clear of the stick or to push hard enough on the leftover air in the lvl 10 from not being able to vent. The reactive effect on the sear is a third of what it was and perhaps the higher reactivity was enough before to snag the tip of the bolt and force it back, but with less reactivity now it can't do that. So if it happens once, taking off the hopper, pushing the bolt back, then gassing up, might resolve it. I am going to play with that this weekend but it's scary because my carrier is definitely not tight and a tighter carrier was working fine before I put the ULE in.

**Jerhew** · 08-21-2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
...my carrier is definitely not tight and a tighter carrier was working fine before I put the ULE in.

is the bigger carrier leaking at all?
if you're having bolt stick problems i think it goes without saying that you should run the biggest carrier you can without it leaking and also the heaviest spring while still being able to have the gun fire...

**QUINCYMASSGUY** · 08-23-2003, 02:29 PM

OK, got mine working now. It needed some serious lubing which I guess means it requires a little more attention in that department than it did before the ULT. I got a fill (finally) and had changed the carrier already as I mentioned and lubed everything. It must have been that the bolt was not fully resetting because of stick so the sear wouldn't reset, and when I gassed it up the sear was being held down by the bolt. So for those of you with the same issue, try that. Kind of scary a mag requires that much lubing now because I do oil it regularly.

**Jerhew** · 08-23-2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Kind of scary a mag requires that much lubing now because I do oil it regularly.

i noticed that too...
hopefully once it's well broken in, it won't need as much attention...still it's not that bad...drop or 2 of oil before playing for the day
atleast we don't have to mess with sear lug adjustments or timing rods

**AkumA** · 08-25-2003, 10:26 PM

so is it certain that the ULE trigger needs serious lubing to stop the issue?

**QUINCYMASSGUY** · 08-26-2003, 11:10 PM

Lube the oring in the power tube and also make sure it is the loosest possible without leaking, lube the ULT and make sure to get the oil in the center of the orings, it is a tight fit and this is where it is needed. This is what resolved my issue, and the important part to note is that my setup was fine before the ULT but due to the lower operating pressure on the on/off the oring causing pin stick is easier.

**BlackVCG** · 08-27-2003, 01:57 PM

The higher quality oil you use, the less frequently you'll have to oil your gun. Autolube is an OK oil, but it in my opinion it doesn't cut it in a higher performance Mag setup that has LX and ULT. With both of those setups, the fit of the o-rings and how smooth things are moving is very critical to keeping the gun running well and reliable.

The problem with autolube is that it drys out the o-rings and the oil itself drys out and doesn't keep things lubed.

Ever since I've been using KC Trouble Free oil, my o-rings stay as clean looking as they were when they were brand new and I never have gun issues that are caused by an inadequate amount of oil.

If you use autolube, do you ever wonder why your o-rings look all brown and dried out and brand new o-rings in parts kit are nice and clear?

**Jerhew** · 08-27-2003, 08:58 PM

im also very fond of the lube that ats uses and sells with their markers(at-85...) it also keeps your o-rings nice and looking like new...not all brown and dry
unfortunately i don't know if they just buy a brand name oil and repackage it as "ats lube"
autolube, the lube palmer sends out with their markers and probably most other lubes that come stock with pb markers are probably just plain airtool oil i imagine...
not really sure though...hrm
someone ought to do a thread on lubes...
they are very important to your guns reliability and consistancy...

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