RT tuning Part II

[38super]

Well I've gone through all the protocols and it's still chuffing. Spent about 3 hours last evening trying to get this thing running properly and still no joy. It will chuff and often not reset at all so I have to de-gas/re-gas to get it to cock. So far I have:

Tuned level 10 per AThomas' instructions. Largest carrier that won't leak and no shims.
Oiled heavily
ULT with every shim combination possible. Fewer shims: less reactivity and still chuffs, maximum shims (7): won't reset at all.
Standard RT valve can still chuff but it will reset generally. Will not RT.
Take-down and frame screw tension adjusted.
Luke Custom trigger mod. Very nice. Faster/shorter/snappier reset, but still chuffing.
Tuna trigger with stops. Adjusted for minimum pre-travel with correct spacing between trigger rod and trigger, and minimum over-travel +1/2 turn for consistent clearance.
Made sure I am fully releasing trigger
Ninja reg shimmed to 1000 psi per Ninja tech instructions (spoke to him on the phone). That's the most I can get without buying a new reg.
Bolt spring is silver and extends past the end of the bolt. Does not appear to be any shorter than when new. This is the spring it shipped with.

With 5 or 6 ULT shims it seems to have the best reactivity, but again, it will usually chuff on the first shot after a string of fire.

Possible variables I can think of:

Gun is currently set for indoor velocities (240). Could this be just too low a range for the bolt spring?

Right now I'm doing all of this tuning dry-fire. Would it make a difference with paint in the chamber? Note that any time I've dry-tuned it and taken it to the field it still chuffs.

My parts kit came with another silver spring. It is very long and fits VERY tight on the bolt. Has to be pressed on. I haven't tried this in the gun yet....don't even know if it would cycle. Should this spring be used and if so, should it be shortened?

Any assistance would be appreciated folks. I'm going nuts trying to figure this out but I know it has to be something I'm doing or not doing. I've read everything I can find in the forums and haven't found the magic solution yet.

Thanks in advance.

[slider30250]

The silver spring is going to be too long for most of your shooting anyway (certainly for only 240 fps). Try using the gold spring, that's the spring I run for both my X-valve and my Classic. Great reactivity on my X and so far no problems with paint breakage. Most of the paint breakage problems that were encountered on the level 7 were because of bolt speed being too high.

When air enters the X-valve it acts on the on/off pin first, the ULT has the smallest pin diameter therefore the smallest area for that air to push on to close the on/off after firing (this is where the reactivity comes from). Furthermore reactivity is reduced when you run a stronger bolt spring because of the reduced difference between the input pressure vs the regulator pressure. After changing to the gold spring you might have to re-shim your Lvl 10 and your ULT, after that you should be good to go.

[38super]

Hmmm, I've been suspecting the spring but have been second guessing this since it only extends a short way past the end of the bolt. I would have to order one of these since the gun only shipped with one spring. Would there be any mileage in trimming the spare silver spring that I currently have, or alternately, using a standard (black) spring out of a Level 7? I have a couple of those lying around. Or is it more a a spring rating issue than a length issue?

The silver spring is going to be too long for most of your shooting anyway (certainly for only 240 fps). Try using the gold spring, that's the spring I run for both my X-valve and my Classic. Great reactivity on my X and so far no problems with paint breakage. Most of the paint breakage problems that were encountered on the level 7 were because of bolt speed being too high.

When air enters the X-valve it acts on the on/off pin first, the ULT has the smallest pin diameter therefore the smallest area for that air to push on to close the on/off after firing (this is where the reactivity comes from). Furthermore reactivity is reduced when you run a stronger bolt spring because of the reduced difference between the input pressure vs the regulator pressure. After changing to the gold spring you might have to re-shim your Lvl 10 and your ULT, after that you should be good to go.

[slider30250]

The gold spring is a Lvl 7 classic valve spring. I'm a little puzzled by your "black" spring I've never heard of it. You can cut the silver spring, only take off a half coil at a time and put the cut end on the bolt. One thing I forgot to mention is a simpler way to look at the problem, a chuff is simply the on/off pin either not resetting fully or not resetting fast enough before the next shot is fired or not opening fully. I hope this clears things up.

[38super]

I'm on a pretty steep learning curve here but I think you've worded it very clearly. Thanks for the help.

Since I am deliberately releasing the trigger fully in an effort to eliminate variables, I would say it probably isn't related to resetting fast enough before the next shot. Therefore, according to your stated two options it must not be resetting fully.....which is what I suspected. See? I am learning.

The level 7: I've had this gun and the spare springs for years; since the gun was new on the market. I guess back then those were the springs they were using. The spare silver spring looks to be nearly twice as long as the one that's in the gun. I have no problem cutting it but my concern is the drag of the spring on the bolt since it's such a tight fit.

The gold spring is a Lvl 7 classic valve spring. I'm a little puzzled by your "black" spring I've never heard of it. You can cut the silver spring, only take off a half coil at a time and put the cut end on the bolt. One thing I forgot to mention is a simpler way to look at the problem, a chuff is simply the on/off pin either not resetting fully or not resetting fast enough before the next shot is fired. I hope this clears things up.

[slider30250]

I would have to say that your best bet for the time being is to run your Classic valve spring for now and order a new gold spring from AGD (while your at it a red Lvl 10 spring is a good thing to have on hand should you ever have any paint breakage problems). If, for any reason after you change the bolt spring you still have any chuffing try backing out your trigger stops next. Once you try out the new spring let me know how it went for you.

[38super]

I've tried it trigger stops backed out completely, and even with the stock AGD trigger.

That sounds like a plan and will let you know how it turns out. I do hope I can get this thing dialed in because other than this issue, I think it's an amazing piece of equipment.

I would have to say that your best bet for the time being is to run your Classic valve spring for now and order a new gold spring from AGD (while your at it a red Lvl 10 spring is a good thing to have on hand should you ever have any paint breakage problems). If, for any reason after you change the bolt spring you still have any chuffing try backing out your trigger stops next. Once you try out the new spring let me know how it went for you.

[slider30250]

I've tried it trigger stops backed out completely, and even with the stock AGD trigger.

That sounds like a plan and will let you know how it turns out. I do hope I can get this thing dialed in because other than this issue, I think it's an amazing piece of equipment.

Yes but if im reading you post right you tried adjusting your trigger stops with the long silver spring installed, if thats the case then readusting your trigger stops could be valid with the new spring installed.

[38super]

No sorry, I wasn't being clear. I'm using the standard spring that was shipped with the gun and I've tried it with and without trigger stops. It is silver in colour, as is the longer spring which was included in the parts kit and hasn't been installed yet. So that's two silver springs of different lengths.

Nonetheless, any new tuning procedures I perform (including spring changes) will be with trigger stops backed all the way out in order to eliminate variables.

Yes but if im reading you post right you tried adjusting your trigger stops with the long silver spring installed, if thats the case then readusting your trigger stops could be valid with the new spring installed.

[slider30250]

No sorry, I wasn't being clear. I'm using the standard spring that was shipped with the gun and I've tried it with and without trigger stops. It is silver in colour, as is the longer spring which was included in the parts kit and hasn't been installed yet. So that's two silver springs of different lengths.

Nonetheless, any new tuning procedures I perform (including spring changes) will be with trigger stops backed all the way out in order to eliminate variables.

Ok cool, if all you had were the silver springs then you should definitely be good to go with the gold spring.

[38super]

Ok cool, if all you had were the silver springs then you should definitely be good to go with the gold spring.

Well my friend, the spring was indeed the thing. Soon as I got home from work I grabbed the black spring and measured it. Took it down in two increments to about 3/16ths past the end of the bolt an viola! Very fast, no chuffing and I can now modulate speed simply by adjusting finger placement on the trigger. This will suit my playing style perfectly.

I guess with the indoor velocities being so low it was just on the edge of functionality. In reality, a 240 fps limit translates to more like 220 for safety margin. I'll keep the standard spring for outdoor play and this one for indoor, plus I still have a spare.

Thanks again! You guys on AO are awesome.

[slider30250]

Well my friend, the spring was indeed the thing. Soon as I got home from work I grabbed the black spring and measured it. Took it down in two increments to about 3/16ths past the end of the bolt an viola! Very fast, no chuffing and I can now modulate speed simply by adjusting finger placement on the trigger. This will suit my playing style perfectly.

I guess with the indoor velocities being so low it was just on the edge of functionality. In reality, a 240 fps limit translates to more like 220 for safety margin. I'll keep the standard spring for outdoor play and this one for indoor, plus I still have a spare.

Thanks again! You guys on AO are awesome.

Your welcome, glad you got you mag working the way you wanted.

[athomas]

When determining which bolt spring to use, you want the gun to start cycling about 20fps below your operating velocity. If you want to shoot at 240fps, you need a spring that allows the gun to start to cycle at 220fps. This is usually the standard level 7 bolt spring. It is usually gold. sometimes, there have been kits with black ones. The middle springs for level 10 kits are usually red and are the standard spring that is most used at around 280fps. The stiffer silver spring is for super tuning your gun. It is too stiff for most setups, but if you cut the coils off a bit at a time, you can tune the spring to give you exactly the force you need for your setup for optimum level 10 operation. Lately, the kits have been coming with only the silver springs. That means you probably need to cut them to get them to work at 280 fps.

[38super]

When determining which bolt spring to use, you want the gun to start cycling about 20fps below your operating velocity. If you want to shoot at 240fps, you need a spring that allows the gun to start to cycle at 220fps. This is usually the standard level 7 bolt spring. It is usually gold. sometimes, there have been kits with black ones. The middle springs for level 10 kits are usually red and are the standard spring that is most used at around 280fps. The stiffer silver spring is for super tuning your gun. It is too stiff for most setups, but if you cut the coils off a bit at a time, you can tune the spring to give you exactly the force you need for your setup for optimum level 10 operation. Lately, the kits have been coming with only the silver springs. That means you probably need to cut them to get them to work at 280 fps.

The spring colour is partly what has been confusing me. The spring that was in the gun when it was shipped to me is silver in colour and exactly the same length as the black L-7 springs I've had in my spare parts bag for like, 15 years. Speaking with Roman last season he told me this is the lightest spring and it should work at all velocities. But having read everything here on AO and on the AGD web page, I was expecting a gold spring. Additionally, I ordered a spare parts kit for the X-valve and the spring in it is also silver but very long and with a longer coil pitch. Obviously that's the tuner spring but you can see why it was confusing.

In any case, whatever this spring is it's clearly too heavy for 240-ish fps. The cut-down black one seems to work (dry-fire) now. I emptied my tank messing around with it and it wouldn't chuff no matter how hard I tried until it got down to 1000psi. Of course the real test will be shooting paint. I'll find out for sure tomorrow night.

Thanks again.

[athomas]

The short silver spring probably means they changed spring stock in the manufacturing. I am surprised the level 7 spring didn't work for you. It sounds like you have an understanding of the operation and a handle on the situation. If you need any further help, just post it up and we'll give you a hand.