for people who believe in evolution? a question

do you think the ultimate goal in evolution is to allow an organism to evolve itself to a point, where the oganism can then control its own evolutionary path? I picked up this question somewhere and havent thought much about it, but all the recent stem-cell hoo ha and debacle got me thinking.

the ultimate end of evolution would be the ability to

1. control matter and energy to a degree
2. not rely on anything for survival

No the ultimate goal of evolution is to allow an organism to adopt to best fit it's enviroment. So if the world were to freeze over in a million years everyone would have fur, if most of the land disapeared we would end up with webbed hands and feet, possibly even the ablity to breath under water or survive longer without breathing.
Controlling it's own evolutionary path is somthing un-natural.

I think in theroy we are almost to the point where we can state what you have with even cigs being able to change DNA and cause canseris cells in the body and if a person didnt smoke would have to worry about his/her DNA changeing. I'm not all too falilar with Stem Cells But I've come to a censis that in the world we live in evolution is makeing a differance in everyday whether it being drug realated or decovering new key facts in life. Evolution is a major step in life being good or bad but we have to live with new things in life cause its not like we could De-evolve unless bringing ourselfs to a point where we simply rely on a something else and simply die off because we couldnt rely on normal techniques to get though everyday life and thats where the thing about controleing your own evolution comes into play. Its all about the future and what the future has in store for us

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AGDlover

I think in theroy we are almost to the point where we can state what you have with even cigs being able to change DNA and cause canseris cells in the body and if a person didnt smoke would have to worry about his/her DNA changeing.

well, kinda. it's a mutation of certain cells. evolution can come from a mutation, but this in no way in concerned a good mutation. it shortens life span and lowers lung compasity. evolution is more concerned with natural slow mutations. evolution, noun. "A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form"

I'm not all too falilar with Stem Cells

stem cells are cells from a zygote that have the ability to turn into whatever cell type is needed. i can't remember all the types, but two are muscle and nervous. so if someone needs spinal tissue so they can walk again, it can be transplanted into their spinal column and then replicate until eventually they have a working spinal column, IE. Christopher Reeves was intrested in this. there are down sides, so another thread.

But I've come to a censis that in the world we live in evolution is makeing a differance in everyday whether it being drug realated or decovering new key facts in life. Evolution is a major step in life being good or bad but we have to live with new things in life cause its not like we could De-evolve unless bringing ourselfs to a point where we simply rely on a something else
and simply die off because we couldnt rely on normal techniques to get though everyday life

happening right now. look at all of your cleaners and look at what says anti bacterial.


and thats where the thing about controleing your own evolution comes into play. Its all about the future and what the future has in store for us

........

---

.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AGDlover

I think in theroy we are almost to the point where we can state what you have with even cigs being able to change DNA and cause canseris cells in the body and if a person didnt smoke would have to worry about his/her DNA changeing. I'm not all too falilar with Stem Cells But I've come to a censis that in the world we live in evolution is makeing a differance in everyday whether it being drug realated or decovering new key facts in life. Evolution is a major step in life being good or bad but we have to live with new things in life cause its not like we could De-evolve unless bringing ourselfs to a point where we simply rely on a something else and simply die off because we couldnt rely on normal techniques to get though everyday life and thats where the thing about controleing your own evolution comes into play. Its all about the future and what the future has in store for us

---

Holy.

Crap.

HERE'S THE DEAL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PyRo

No the ultimate goal of evolution is to allow an organism to adopt to best fit it's enviroment. So if the world were to freeze over in a million years everyone would have fur, if most of the land disapeared we would end up with webbed hands and feet, possibly even the ablity to breath under water or survive longer without breathing.
Controlling it's own evolutionary path is somthing un-natural.

---

You're thinking of primal evolution. We as humans are intelligent, and I'm pretty sure as we evolve.. there's a link between what our brain translates as necessary and the end result in our evolution. I think human evolution is far different from the evolution of non or lesser intelligent life. Animals live to eat, sleep and mate. They evolved to be able to eat (hunt if necessary), to be able to sleep (hibernate.. tolerance.. etc) and to efficiently mate. Then also.. we see animals that have evolved because of circumstance.. thick coats in cold climates.. hard skin when being prey to larger animals (some do, some are yet to evolve).

Us humans work on an entirely different level. A MASSIVE and very important difference between humans and animals is our level of awareness and ability to change ourselves. A human being can be anything from a fat dumb useless slob.. to a genius such as Albert Einstein.. to a person who has mastered their physical body to a degree like Bruce Lee. Some people have amazingly powerful minds.. like David Blaine (who incidently CANNOT fly FYI).

I think evolution for humans.. is actually controlled to a degree. We have control over ourselves. We, unless afflicted by disability, can easily alter our intelligence, our physical prowess and ability.. etc. Bruce Lee could hit someone like a Speeding Car. Stephen Hawking is literally constructing a theory of everything which is the current pinnicle of imaginable genius. David Blaine froze himself and through concentration lived where any of you would have died.

Now here's the game-breaker.. FTW

Humans.. force themselves to evolve. We no longer naturally evolve and are thus limited in evolution.. Why? Because of SCIENCE. SCIENCE is something that only humans have. Science and technology are used by almost all of the world now to a degree. If a room is too cold we have heaters, if we need to get somewhere fast we had horses, then wagons, now cars and one day who knows what. We do not physically evolve anymore because we are LAZY and ABLE TO CREATE something to do it for us! Leave a tribe of texans out in the woods with bears and cougars for 100 years... you can bet your *** in 100, or 1000 years they would NEVER evolve. Why? Heck they'd have their guns and knives rather than evolving or growing large talons. Weak example but true and relevant nonetheless.

Science will prevent us from being subject to evolution. However in turn, it exposes us to the ability to MODIFY ourselves.. forced evolution for good or for bad. Need claws? Heck.. I'm sure some wolverine claws COULD be installed easily on a person however useless they would be.

However I see one trend happening and I have a singular prediction for human evolution. Yes, we are lazy. We are exiting the era of manual labor and hard physical work.. slowly. Give it a half millenia but it'll happen. What will happen to us? Well.. one trend is already beginning. We've gotten FAT. Obesity is crazy in the advanced nations (asians aside.. but that leads me to my next point here) Unless we ever as a race adopted to healthy diets we'll always be fat and we'll make our machines or accompany our rotund selves. Don't mistake evolution here... even though our technology would be more functional and efficently used in many ways if we were skinny, lanky and flexible... we will never evolve around that because we build our machines to suit us, not vice versa.

Those are my thoughts on evolution. True and modern evolution. Because, human evolution itself has evolved. We have escaped primal evolution that takes thousands of years and have become controllers of our evolution through science and through our simple ability to choose to become better.

There is no ultimate goal to evolution, evolution is a word that describes how organisms survive. IE those that are awesome survive, and those that suck die out. The term ultimate goal denotes design, am I'm sure you know where that leads.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonneh

There is no ultimate goal to evolution, evolution is a word that describes how organisms survive. IE those that are awesome survive, and those that suck die out. The term ultimate goal denotes design, am I'm sure you know where that leads.

---

i would say that's a rather old and closed definition of evolution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadPSIence

i would say that's a rather old and closed definition of evolution.

---

What? why?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadPSIence

HERE'S THE DEAL

Us humans work on an entirely different level. A MASSIVE and very important difference between humans and animals is our level of awareness and ability to change ourselves. A human being can be anything from a fat dumb useless slob.. to a genius such as Albert Einstein.. to a person who has mastered their physical body to a degree like Bruce Lee. Some people have amazingly powerful minds.. like David Blaine (who incidently CANNOT fly FYI).

LOL I had to laugh at that last thing about David Blaine ok in my oppion about that its not that they have powerful minds its they have tricky minds. He has praticed what he does for YEARS so I wouldnt call it Powerful over tricky.


Now here's the game-breaker.. FTW

Humans.. force themselves to evolve. We no longer naturally evolve and are thus limited in evolution.. Why? Because of SCIENCE. SCIENCE is something that only humans have. Science and technology are used by almost all of the world now to a degree. If a room is too cold we have heaters, if we need to get somewhere fast we had horses, then wagons, now cars and one day who knows what. We do not physically evolve anymore because we are LAZY and ABLE TO CREATE something to do it for us! Leave a tribe of texans out in the woods with bears and cougars for 100 years... you can bet your *** in 100, or 1000 years they would NEVER evolve. Why? Heck they'd have their guns and knives rather than evolving or growing large talons. Weak example but true and relevant nonetheless.

AGREE COPLETELY ON THAT

---

:cheers:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonneh

There is no ultimate goal to evolution, evolution is a word that describes how organisms survive. IE those that are awesome survive, and those that suck die out. The term ultimate goal denotes design, am I'm sure you know where that leads.

---

Quite right. Evolution describes life. Life will always be, for we will have killed enough to spark life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadPSIence

i would say that's a rather old and closed definition of evolution.

---

Er... no. That is THE definition of evolution.

Quote:

---

Evolution: Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.

---

All this stuff about humans not evolving is BS. Evolution may slow down for humans because of artificial selection rather than natural selection, but every time your genes mutate and you pass it on to your children, you're evolving. Evolution has no GOAL except survival, and perhaps the formation of a new species. One organism cannot EVOLVE within its lifetime, except on a personal level.

Evolution needs a few things to occur.

1. A large population-- I think we've got this one covered. PM me if you need this explained, I'll use small words.
2. Gene flow-- the ability for genes to move in and out of population, without natural barriers. The transportation industry has now made it perfectly possible for a man to buy an Eastern European as a bride and fly her back to America and make babies. Yay for gene flow.
3. Genetic adaptation-- this talks about the expression of genes from one generation of the next. If one generation of your family all expressed the homogeneous ugly gene (UU) and they married into another family that was heterogeneous for the ugly gene (Uu) then the ugly gene would be expressed in the first batch of offspring. If your Uu offspring married into a uu (not ugly) family, then the chances of the survival of your bloodline would skyrocket, as the chances of ugly kids out of that mix is 1/2. And that brings me to my next point...
4. Natural selection-- continuing with the above example. If your family has no other attractive characteristics (money, fame, etc) then chances are the ugly gene will remain prevelant in your family and you'll die off. But if you're intelligent and therefore make a lot of money, the chances of making pretty children (mating with someone with a uu genotype) increases a lot.
5. Gene mutation-- accidents of genetics that happen to work out and stick around for generation after generation.

I would say that expecting humans to grow large talons is a completely idiotic thought. We don't NEED to evolve in that direction anymore.

Quote:

---

Because, human evolution itself has evolved.

---

You seemed to have missed the boat, darlin. YES, it HAS evolved. But we don't FORCE evolution, it happens to us. We get drawn towards the path of least resistance, just like we always have... except this time, the path of least resistance doesn't involve fur or claws. Now chosing a mate based on other qualities is more important and THAT is where evolution comes in.

Bah I need to go study.

The "goal" of evolution? I don't think evolution has an agenda... it just happens.

Something kind of interesting with human beings... is how we have removed certain disadvantages of being a weaker member of the species... through technology or societal support. It doesn't take as much to survive and successfully replicate anymore.

http://www.cybergrain.com/images/fly...ag_monster.jpg

RAmen.

Agreed, there is no "goal" to evolution. Evolution is the result of mutations within an organism. Those mutations which have a positive result tend to cause the spread of the mutation throughout the population, whereas an unsuccessful mutation will not. Evolution has no "goal," beyond adapting positive mutations as they come along. To imply that evolution has a goal is to equate it with intelligent design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SCpoloRicker

http://www.cybergrain.com/images/fly...ag_monster.jpg

RAmen.

---

Wondered how long it would take for that bad-boy to make an appearance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carbon

do you think the ultimate goal in evolution is to allow an organism to evolve itself to a point, where the oganism can then control its own evolutionary path? I picked up this question somewhere and havent thought much about it, but all the recent stem-cell hoo ha and debacle got me thinking.

---

by the definition of evolution, there is no goal. there is no ultimate force guiding it. it just happens. although if the organism could control its own evolutionary path that would be ideal, as far as the success of the species is concerned... but then again if that happened, there would be no species, or rather there would be many different species. controlling its own evolutionary path would be extremely hard...

wait, in which way do you mean? do you mean as in humans (or some other scientifically advanced species) is able to genetically engineer its own ofspring, or a species just naturally evolves to the point where each member is able to control individually which genes it passes on (or alter genes) and is thus able to control its own evolutionary path?

He touched me with his noodly appendage..........

the ultimate goal of evolution



























is to build a hopper that the doors don't brake on

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cabldawg

the ultimate goal of evolution

is to build a hopper that the doors don't brake on

---

Sooo ... the band is driving a car and have to stop but avoid a hopper ... I don't get it ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadPSIence

Some people have amazingly powerful minds.. like David Blaine

---

See, you just lost me right there. I'll never be able to respect anything you ever say again :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tropical_fishy

Evolution needs a few things to occur.
<snip>
2. Gene flow-- the ability for genes to move in and out of population, without natural barriers.

---

I don't know if I would use the word "needs" here. I thought part of the whole beneficial mutation jazz was that sometimes a population becomes isolated and evolves independently ... inbreeding if you will. Imagine how long it would have taken the native population of humans in say, Alaska to evolve more tolerance for the cold if DNA from humans from warmer climates was constantly being added to their gene pool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slade

wait, in which way do you mean? do you mean as in humans (or some other scientifically advanced species) is able to genetically engineer its own ofspring

---

Don't you know that the "gray aliens" who abduct people are really time travelling humans from the future who have had to genetically adapt their bodies to a world where the environment had been radically altered. You should listen to Coast to Coast AM more often (c:

thee is no goal of evolution

evoltion is just the term we, hairless monkeys have coined for some genetic traits and behaviors surviving across generations in a genus.


but looking at it from the organisms standpoint:

develope defenses against all potential predators
develope effective means of feeding oneself
breed, as much as possible to make sure your genes are passed on

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carbon

do you think the ultimate goal in evolution is to allow an organism to evolve itself to a point, where the oganism can then control its own evolutionary path? I picked up this question somewhere and havent thought much about it, but all the recent stem-cell hoo ha and debacle got me thinking.

---

To imply a goal to a natural process also implies intelligent design does it not? If there is a reason for it, other than it simply occuring, there must be something that set that goal. Its not a path like a road map into the future, its a way of explaining the history of how we got here now and perhaps to guess where it will go in the future. To have a goal, requires an intelligent, forward thinking something to set that goal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadPSIence

HERE'S THE DEAL



You're thinking of primal evolution. We as humans are intelligent, and I'm pretty sure as we evolve.. there's a link between what our brain translates as necessary and the end result in our evolution. I think human evolution is far different from the evolution of non or lesser intelligent life. Animals live to eat, sleep and mate. They evolved to be able to eat (hunt if necessary), to be able to sleep (hibernate.. tolerance.. etc) and to efficiently mate. Then also.. we see animals that have evolved because of circumstance.. thick coats in cold climates.. hard skin when being prey to larger animals (some do, some are yet to evolve).

Us humans work on an entirely different level. A MASSIVE and very important difference between humans and animals is our level of awareness and ability to change ourselves. A human being can be anything from a fat dumb useless slob.. to a genius such as Albert Einstein.. to a person who has mastered their physical body to a degree like Bruce Lee. Some people have amazingly powerful minds.. like David Blaine (who incidently CANNOT fly FYI).

I think evolution for humans.. is actually controlled to a degree. We have control over ourselves. We, unless afflicted by disability, can easily alter our intelligence, our physical prowess and ability.. etc. Bruce Lee could hit someone like a Speeding Car. Stephen Hawking is literally constructing a theory of everything which is the current pinnicle of imaginable genius. David Blaine froze himself and through concentration lived where any of you would have died.

Now here's the game-breaker.. FTW

Humans.. force themselves to evolve. We no longer naturally evolve and are thus limited in evolution.. Why? Because of SCIENCE. SCIENCE is something that only humans have. Science and technology are used by almost all of the world now to a degree. If a room is too cold we have heaters, if we need to get somewhere fast we had horses, then wagons, now cars and one day who knows what. We do not physically evolve anymore because we are LAZY and ABLE TO CREATE something to do it for us! Leave a tribe of texans out in the woods with bears and cougars for 100 years... you can bet your *** in 100, or 1000 years they would NEVER evolve. Why? Heck they'd have their guns and knives rather than evolving or growing large talons. Weak example but true and relevant nonetheless.

Science will prevent us from being subject to evolution. However in turn, it exposes us to the ability to MODIFY ourselves.. forced evolution for good or for bad. Need claws? Heck.. I'm sure some wolverine claws COULD be installed easily on a person however useless they would be.

However I see one trend happening and I have a singular prediction for human evolution. Yes, we are lazy. We are exiting the era of manual labor and hard physical work.. slowly. Give it a half millenia but it'll happen. What will happen to us? Well.. one trend is already beginning. We've gotten FAT. Obesity is crazy in the advanced nations (asians aside.. but that leads me to my next point here) Unless we ever as a race adopted to healthy diets we'll always be fat and we'll make our machines or accompany our rotund selves. Don't mistake evolution here... even though our technology would be more functional and efficently used in many ways if we were skinny, lanky and flexible... we will never evolve around that because we build our machines to suit us, not vice versa.

Those are my thoughts on evolution. True and modern evolution. Because, human evolution itself has evolved. We have escaped primal evolution that takes thousands of years and have become controllers of our evolution through science and through our simple ability to choose to become better.

---

Holy cow. The child needs pasta and meatballs so that the evil can be calmed. Avast ye, and claim a fair Galleon.

RAmen.

Quote:

---

human evolution itself has evolved. We have escaped primal evolution that takes thousands of years and have become controllers of our evolution through science and through our simple ability to choose to become better.

---

This is correct. We are not bald, skinny and soft because it's advantageous to our survival, it's becaus we have a brain that allows us to be like that. Humans are entirely mental beings. In my opinon the next plane of evolution will involve cyborgs and the digitization of the human mind, even further removing survival of the person from survival of the body.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaan

I don't know if I would use the word "needs" here. I thought part of the whole beneficial mutation jazz was that sometimes a population becomes isolated and evolves independently ... inbreeding if you will. Imagine how long it would have taken the native population of humans in say, Alaska to evolve more tolerance for the cold if DNA from humans from warmer climates was constantly being added to their gene pool.

---

Need was the wrong word, because there are species, like Darwin's finches, that evolved separately. I was thinking more on the other end of things-- if a species is having problems surviving, then having genes flow into the population would be the best thing for it.

Gene flow is like... putting jellyfish DNA in a petri dish with E. Coli and stressing out the E. Coli and forcing them to take up the jellyfish DNA and glow. By putting stress on the organisms in their environment you require them to search for and apply new genetic traits. The E.Coli experiment isn't evolution or even gene flow, but it's the general idea. It's an integral part of evolution, but i think you're correct in saying it doesnt always help.