So I was Thinking about a New Gun Design.....

[vf-xx]

You'd still need a LPR and a ram to actuate the bolt. I don't see that as a huge issue . The bolt could be a very, very small thing. I already have a layout in mind... and I think that using modern casting techniques this could be a very, very cheap gun to mfg. (provided the only special feature we're looking at is the use of an injector instead of regulators and metering devices)

And I think I may have figured out a way around needing a LPR and second solinoid...

Why would you need a ram to actuate the bolt? Why not just go blow forward like the Mag?

[tasker89]

Is it even still "accepted" (if it ever was) that "HP" is more efficient than "LP"? When I think of the most efficient markers, not a single one is "HP." Reply With Quote

Once "LP" became canon I don't think anyone even tried to go the other direction. Perhaps Tom would like to weigh in on this?

[Lohman446]

To the "it can't be done because we don't have this" such as consistant paintballs (though it has been pointed out we do have them).

Remember the Automag came out and was embraced before we had a good power source for it.

[nerobro]

To the "it can't be done because we don't have this" such as consistant paintballs (though it has been pointed out we do have them).

Remember the Automag came out and was embraced before we had a good power source for it.

I don't think anything here has been a "can't." There's been a couple "not a good plan" or "insanely hard to implement" ideas. Anything that's been insanely hard to implment is stuff that would make good study material anyway. Even if it's a poor idea to have ongun.

If I only had a lathe.....

[Chronobreak]

Tom,

I have thought about this for a bit now. Why do we need all these do dads? is it really going to make the game better? Is it going to mean a simple elegant design like the classic mag where it is idiot proof and there is nothing that needs to be adjusted or any unnecessary things that can go wrong? A gun that anyone can pick up and go shoot without having any prior knowledge of the inner workings, adjustments, settings and things that just seem to cause problems for so many users of current equipment. If it cant do all that i feel its not even worth discussing.

I got off the phone with an old friend of yours, you might know him, his name is Tim Schloss.
He recommends that you make a nice vertical feed, double triggered classic mag with a modern style at a price point that fits its quality and capabilities.

so Tom, lets get back to the basics and stop messing around.

[nerobro]

This touches on a big advantage of electronic guns. They don't need to be made anywhere near as accurately as mechanical guns. an Ion is more or less just a drilled tube with a barrel on the front.

With the mag you had several, stacked, critical tolerances. The valve body fit inside the body, the body fit to the rail. The on/off height within the body... and this was reflected in different length on/offs.

That's actually a "failure" of the e-mag. It was still dependant on all the tight tolerances of the mag. (also it's advantage, as it had a manual mode if the gun failed)

Say this design ends up blowforward, that means you have a tube, that you screw a barrel on the end of... and that's it. You hook up two wires to the back of the valve body and an air source and you're done.

The injector design could be DEAD cheap to make. Excepting the cost of hte injector itself, which I think runs ~100. In fact, this sort of design leads itself to being installed in all sorts of bodies. Anything from a pistol to a bullpup to a turret. :-)

Something tells me the injector design would be cheaper than making a mag.

[snoopay700]

that's pretty funny, i compare cars and paintball markers all the time.
spyders are civics, e-frames are turbochargers, solenoids and electronics are superchargers, angels are lambos, egos are ferraris, mags are old school muscle cars

Gah no, tippmanns maybe, but mags handle much better than muscle cars do.

I think of them more like old Porches, or maybe Lotuses because it was a smaller company making a great product, although the whole crapload of engineering going into the gun goes along with Porsche.

As for the whole chrono barrel thing, i touched on that, it would have to be at the end of the barrel and the shroud it's in could not be the same size as the bore, it would have to be larger. The way a gun operates does not affect how it is accelerated. For a given barrel length, whether it be low pressure or high pressure, the ball should still be accelerated at the same rate since it's on a given distance. That is unless i'm thinking about it wrong, but i'm fairly certain that that is true.

[AGD]

For everyone that says "go back to basics and make it cheap" my response is that I don't do that. China, Tippmann and everyone else does that just fine. There is no possible way to make a marker in this country that is any where near good value for the money.

Carburetors are much simpler and cheaper than fuel injection, how did we ever get cars with computers? Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years?

AGD

[Ratt]

For everyone that says "go back to basics and make it cheap" my response is that I don't do that. China, Tippmann and everyone else does that just fine. There is no possible way to make a marker in this country that is any where near good value for the money.

Carburetors are much simpler and cheaper than fuel injection, how did we ever get cars with computers? Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years?

AGD

...I don't buy it.

[tasker89]

Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years?

One could argue that most of what is pitched by the industry as "innovative" and "ground breaking" is nothing more than refinement of established technology. It seems to me that the only remaining paradigm shifting opportunities rest in the projectile itself and feed mechanisms. The tech is already out there...but it hasn't been widely adopted.

At what point do the guns become a bit Rube Goldbergish to be slinging little malformed blobs of goop and gelatin?

[LK-13]

Tom, thanks for giving us some hope that something may one day jump to mind and may in fact lead to a build.

the only thing i have issue with is the blasted electronics needed for something like this.

"the more you over rout the plumbing the easier it is to stop up a drain..."
Montgomery Scot Chief Engineer USS Enterprise.

I refuse to accept that the limits of mechanical systems have been reached given the rules, guidelines and parameters of paintball.

easy to service/maintain/repair built for longevity and versatility.

and compatible with both co2 and hpa.

[druid]

For everyone that says "go back to basics and make it cheap" my response is that I don't do that.

China, Tippmann and everyone else does that just fine. There is no possible way to make a marker in this country that is any where near good value for the money.

Carburetors are much simpler and cheaper than fuel injection, how did we ever get cars with computers? Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years?

AGD

I'm not quite sure how to interpret that tone ::shrugs:: but it seems a bit snide for the fact you are asking for "our opinions" and this ^^ is the type of response we get [??]

That being said and with all due respect...

Then I hope your governmental contracts continue to fill your belly for you. This economy might be good for some but it's horrible for the rest of us and taking "the hard line" isn't going to sell many markers until it clears up [if it even does].

There's a big difference between "making it cheap" and "making it affordable." I don't believe I've seen anyone suggest outsourcing to China...although I might have missed that and I completely agree that you shouldn't do it. However there are alternatives to manufacturing processes and techniques that are just as good as another. Handgun manufacturers use Titanium wrapped around steel sleeves. I hardly call that "cheap manufacturing" and they aren't that dissimilar in cost to an all-steel firearm.

I don't think we are in the "twilight years" and there is ALWAYS room for improvement...but the idea is to make what the customer base wants...not necessarily what the designers want. What do the customers want Tom? I believe we've made that abundantly clear....

[snoopay700]

I'm not quite sure how to interpret that tone ::shrugs:: but it seems a bit snide for the fact you are asking for "our opinions" and this ^^ is the type of response we get [??]

That being said and with all due respect...

Then I hope your governmental contracts continue to fill your belly for you. This economy might be good for some but it's horrible for the rest of us and taking "the hard line" isn't going to sell many markers until it clears up [if it even does].

There's a big difference between "making it cheap" and "making it affordable." I don't believe I've seen anyone suggest outsourcing to China...although I might have missed that and I completely agree that you shouldn't do it. However there are alternatives to manufacturing processes and techniques that are just as good as another. Handgun manufacturers use Titanium wrapped around steel sleeves. I hardly call that "cheap manufacturing" and they aren't that dissimilar in cost to an all-steel firearm.

I don't think we are in the "twilight years" and there is ALWAYS room for improvement...but the idea is to make what the customer base wants...not necessarily what the designers want. What do the customers want Tom? I believe we've made that abundantly clear....

The problem is that Tom is much like other people who like designing things, especially now that he's not actively in the business and doesn't need to think about what the consumer wants.

He is thinking of a design he would want to use, something incredible, rather than something that will appeal to the masses. Tom looks at a problem and wants to fix it. I'm much the same way with the marker i'm designing, i'm designing it for me, and if i can sell it and people like it then all the better. I mainly just want a paintball gun i would want to use and has all of the features i want than make something that would sell easily.

[Newt]

Last I checked, national unemployment was almost 10%. Higher in some states. I know nobody wants to say the "D" word, but if you go back and look at the numbers from the late 1920's and early 30's, you might not be surprised a luxury sport like paintball is reverting back to pump.

Honestly, I'm very pessimistic about how soon the economic sunshine is going to peek over the horizon, but I am optimistic that the sport will make it through.

[Dend78]

you are correct Newt there are a lot of pumpers but there are also a lot of woodsballers. its cheaper and eaiser to go out and play in your buddies woods than it is to pay a field fee, paint fee, air and any other fee that the field has...im not slamming on the field owners cause hey you gotta make a buck or its not worth paying the insurance to keep it open.

i believe what Tom is saying with that comment is that rather than revert back to the basics and old technology why not bring something new. which i totally understand the old stuff works great and the new stuff works great but the new stuff this year looks alot like the new stuff from last year and the year before that and so on. it all has the same basic function only the programing on the boards changed but nothing truly innovative has really hit the table. take for instance the mag and the cocker when those hit the market you were shooting a mag or a cocker anything else was a toy pretty much....then out came an Angel and wow look what happened to the sport once electronics hit.

Tom is also correct in saying you cant make something worth the money here anymore, i mean look we are spending 200+ for body's for our mags thats just a body then you gotta get a rail which hey nice body better have a nice rail milled for that there is extra added cost. Basically if you want a cheap marker that can fling paint consistently go buy and ion, but if you want something that is built to last and its made here in America there is a price tag that comes with it.

What Tom is talking about here is a big step ahead of what we already have especially if it can be made to work as well as he said. will it shed new light on the sport who knows but it will truly be something new which we really haven't seen in this sport for a while.

[om3n]

For everyone that says "go back to basics and make it cheap" my response is that I don't do that.
AGD

?!
Why is Tom talking about this in terms of HIM making this gun??

Please mean what I think it means....

[nerobro]

For everyone that says "go back to basics and make it cheap" my response is that I don't do that. China, Tippmann and everyone else does that just fine. There is no possible way to make a marker in this country that is any where near good value for the money.

But a midrange, or high end gun? I'm not even entirely sure if that's possable. The financial realities of production are something you're a lot better at than I am.

Carburetors are much simpler and cheaper than fuel injection, how did we ever get cars with computers? Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years?

This is a sad state. :-/ Nearly everything went to two designs by the time I stopped really following paintball. Spool valves, and linked hammer guns.

I do think the electronic regulator concept can work. And it would be a uniquely AGD thing. I think it could be done at a competitive price. Though in this case, the hardware is the easy part, (I think... ) the software is going to be where all the magic happens. With a gun that more or less has it's operating method defined by software, a "lets get it to market" software could be released, and as new features came up, the gun could be brought up to the new standards either by flashing, or new chips.

getting technical again
Anyone know what sort of electrical requirements injectors have?

[cockerpunk]

no doubt the rise in electrical control systems in both cars and paintball guns can be paralleled. we used to live in a world where engineers knew there was a dynamic range of conditions and then made some assumptions and picked an average value that would work in the vast variety of systems. now we live in a world where you can stick a sensor on it, measure it, optimize it, then change it to get an ideal all the time (or damn close).

but i wonder why the closed loop systems that are so common in modern vehicles and other appliances (washing machines, blenders ... god you name it) have not taken off in paintball. my initial thoughts are that no one in the industry is any good at programing. it would be a pity if that were true. a closed loop system could be made idiot proof very easily. combining a few sets of sensors (eyes or pizeo-electrics) and a barrel tip chrono, you would never have to adjust your gun for any reason, the gun would be self-setting up. much like how car today optimize there timing and such for performance, or fuel economy.

idk what the next revolution in gun design will be. my thoughts are a gun and loader that are integrated to truly stop all possible barrel breaks, but we will see if that is the case. there are a few reasons why i think that, but i want to know what tom thinks. the industry is certainly positioned for the next breakthrough, nothing new or revolutionary has come out since the Mini, which wasn't that big of deal.

idk Tom, what do you think is the next revolution?

[nerobro]

*feedback systems*

Sensors are expensive. And running blind works really well for applications like this. As much as cars have sensors out the wazoo, at full throttle, say.. half the sensors are ignored. Or the car runs off of a reading that was taken at startup, not something that's constantly updated.

An all singing all dancing gun was tried in the past. It didn't get far. For a lot of reasons... I don't think the market could support a gun like the cyber9000. Features that would allow for self velocity regulation would require ugly add ons, They also couldn't be trusted to work consistantly. A gun with a built in chrono, is a gun with just one more part to have fail. Guns need to be sexy to sell.

With an injector, and either a nice input tranducer (like the angel airs had..) or feeding it with a "decent" n2 system, we could precisely meter out air. Precisely enough that most of the velocity variation would come from things that we can't really control.

Because it's worth mentioning, current motorcycle EFI runs blind, or nearly so. That's not far from what we'd be doing.

I hate to say it, but I agree that the quality of programming in paintball guns usually leaves something to be desired. So does the engineering (or complete lack thereof...)

Still I think we're to the point where acutally "doing" something would be the next step. Either call up siemens or bosch, and see what they have to say about injectors, or go scrounge one and throw it on a barrel, see if we can get sufficent velocity.

[cockerpunk]

Sensors are expensive. And running blind works really well for applications like this. As much as cars have sensors out the wazoo, at full throttle, say.. half the sensors are ignored. Or the car runs off of a reading that was taken at startup, not something that's constantly updated.

An all singing all dancing gun was tried in the past. It didn't get far. For a lot of reasons... I don't think the market could support a gun like the cyber9000. Features that would allow for self velocity regulation would require ugly add ons, They also couldn't be trusted to work consistantly. A gun with a built in chrono, is a gun with just one more part to have fail. Guns need to be sexy to sell.

With an injector, and either a nice input tranducer (like the angel airs had..) or feeding it with a "decent" n2 system, we could precisely meter out air. Precisely enough that most of the velocity variation would come from things that we can't really control.

Because it's worth mentioning, current motorcycle EFI runs blind, or nearly so. That's not far from what we'd be doing.

I hate to say it, but I agree that the quality of programming in paintball guns usually leaves something to be desired. So does the engineering (or complete lack thereof...)

Still I think we're to the point where acutally "doing" something would be the next step. Either call up siemens or bosch, and see what they have to say about injectors, or go scrounge one and throw it on a barrel, see if we can get sufficent velocity.

sensors used to be expensive.

they are not anymore.

the accelerometer that makes the wii system (littereally without the wii wouldn't work) is less then a 2 dollar part. you can buy them on any electronics site for cheap cheap cheap. pizeo-electriccs are even cheaper, and eyes are also VERY cheap. if you didn't know, most encoders use break beam eyes like in out guns, and encoders are SUPER cheap. stepper motors on the output side are easy to get a hold of today too, up to relatively large torques even. we arn't talking about CnC hyper accurate sensors here.

that is a key reason why control systems have taken over our daily lives so much, because they are cheap and effective. its the reason why electronics have taken off in paintball so much too. you used to have to spend hours with an expert to fine tune your trigger, now your trigger control system comes from china for 5 bucks (PCBs are super cheap), and is better then any expert can tune a mech.

while clumsyness might be an issue, that does not seem like a reason to not attempt a fully electronically controlled gun. as i said before, the payoffs would be awesome. i for one, hate having to setup and tune guns, you would not have to do any of that. not to mention reliability in this game is a huge marketing position.



the only reason i can think of that anyone wouldn't attempt to have more electronic control on there guns is that the current people writing the code are not talented enough to control those types of things. or they do not realize the goal in and of itself.

[luke]

For everyone that says "go back to basics and make it cheap" my response is that I don't do that. China, Tippmann and everyone else does that just fine. There is no possible way to make a marker in this country that is any where near good value for the money.

AGD

Wouldn’t that depend on the approach to the project? Why would it not be feasible if it were approached from a “non corporate” direction, i.e. the “garage shop? (I was surprised to see the AGDE’s shop out fitted with a HAAS Mini mill )

[luke]

Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years?

AGD

Hopefully it’s the fall of “corporate paintball”, perhaps big money will lose interest and leave it alone. A pipe dream yes, but still one can hope. There might be hope for small companies at the end of the recession, time will tell.

[snoopay700]

sensors.

I agree, although i do love tinkering and stuff it would be nice to just be able to go out to the chrono range, shoot off a few shots, shoot a few over the chrono to be sure your chrono is accurate, and then go play. The only thing you would ever have to do is change modes, and that can be done fairly easily.

[cockerpunk]

I agree, although i do love tinkering and stuff it would be nice to just be able to go out to the chrono range, shoot off a few shots, shoot a few over the chrono to be sure your chrono is accurate, and then go play. The only thing you would ever have to do is change modes, and that can be done fairly easily.

i keep a couple of mech cockers on hand whenever i get the urge.

sometimes though, you just want your damn gun to work so you can freakin play the game.

[nerobro]

sensors used to be expensive.

they are not anymore. *snip*

that is a key reason why control systems have taken over our daily lives so much, because they are cheap and effective.*snip*
while clumsyness might be an issue, that does not seem like a reason to not attempt a fully electronically controlled gun. as i said before, the payoffs would be awesome. i for one, hate having to setup and tune guns, you would not have to do any of that. not to mention reliability in this game is a huge marketing position.

the only reason i can think of that anyone wouldn't attempt to have more electronic control on there guns is that the current people writing the code are not talented enough to control those types of things. or they do not realize the goal in and of itself.

Your point stands up to an extent. The IS board was $10 in parts, including the PCB, at 20 count quantities. Lots of sensors are cheap now. Lots of sensors were always cheap. Eyes are cheap (photoresistors/transistors/whatever) are less than a nickel each, leds are a few pennies so long as you don't want them to be "laser". (that term makes me ill...) Now, mounting those sensors, and putting them in useful places, is a lot more difficult.

Also a lot of the "sensors" used today aren't serious sensors. More often than they'd like to admit they're just resistors placed so the microcontroller can sense the current being used. I think that hits upon why things have gotten cheap. Processing power is now at nickel or quarter cost, instead of dollars. You can take advantage of cheap sensors due to cheap microcontrollers. This is a leap that the paintball industry has already made.

A collar that had two gates in it to measure paintball velocity would cost very little electrically. But you'd need to have parts machined, or plastic molded. Those things aren't cheap to start doing . And if you're really smart you'd have some fancy way of protecting hte wires going from said collar back to the gun. Maybe it could be sold as an accessory? I don't see it needing to be intergal to the design.

I think the goal of production for a "completely self compensating" gun would not be hard to achieve. We're talking cheap parts, obviously. However trying to sell said gun... that would be a lot harder.

As for deeper electronic control of the guns... most of the designs out there are quite brute force. They are consistent because the inputs to them are large, and robust. like 7-10ms on times for solenoids.

With the injector design, we could be playing with outputs that are in the khz range, rather than hz range. :-) I want to see a data sheet for the peizo injectors.

A gun with the injector would be quite consistent. It would only need once a day velocity setup, and that would be the end of it.

When developing a product, one needs to keep their mind open to futher expansion, but not get caught up in feature creep.

[cockerpunk]

thats exactly what i mean. the issue isn't that sensors are expensive, its that writing the code to control them is far more complex then we seen in most paintball guns today.

thats the only reason i can think of why they arn't more prevent.

[oldironmudder]

Found this video that shows an injector working.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-ZC1FaNDh0

http://www.etas.com/data/RealTimes_2...6_01_28_en.pdf

For this reason, the actuator of a
piezo injector consists of 350 stacked
layers of piezo crystals whose combined
expansion at 150 volts adds
up to roughly 40 μm. This is sufficient
to effect reliable injector valve
switching


Compared to conventional electromagnetic
injectors, the piezo injector
is four to five times faster.

Because the fuel injector's opening
or closing interval has shrunk to a
mere 100 μs, up to seven injections
per cycle are feasible at an injection
pressure of 1800 bar (26,107 psi)
(planning for 2000 bar is underway).
Even very small fuel volumes of only
1 mm3 per lift are easily accomplished
with piezo injectors.

Im still looking for better specs.



Oh ya, found this picture of a 6.4L Powerstroke injector.

[Psi]

Perhaps the age of paintball innovation is over with, are we now in the twilight years? AGD

I seriously doubt you believe that Tom. I believe that innovation in respect to rate of fire has gone as far as it needs to, but some people just can't help themselves and will push it further. Lets hope they are as wise as you and find other markets for it.

Where innovations need to continue is in accuracy and range. But look who I'm talking too Which brings me to the alternating vortices in your first post. How can they not be random? I understand they are alternating. But with a trip boundary layer caused by the seam and the inability to control the orientation of the seam, it would seem that the vortices would always be random.

Have you seen something with all your super duper gadgets? I would go look with my own super duper gadgets but Fairbanks spent all my super duper gadget money rolling BMWs into little balls of aluminum. I come seeking knowledge all masterful and all knowing Tom.

[vf-xx]

Im still looking for better specs.

Oh ya, found this picture of a 6.4L Powerstroke injector.

Hrm. That's going to make for a long gun....

[Dend78]

this is a walk in the park fit for an AK-47, M-15 ...

what the heck is an M-15