So I was Thinking about a New Gun Design.....

[DevilMan]

Well the ultimate would be bolt-less design. A way to seal the breach to allow the injector to pulse the air into it and then open to allow ball feed.

If you used an injector to replace the area of the regulator on the valve that would be one step in the right direction as it's pulse a set PSI or for a set time (MS) and that would force the bolt forward same as the mag works currently. I really don't think that'd be too difficult to incorporate and test. Now PRODUCING it is another can of worms.

To me the ideal way though would be to have the balls feed straight into the breach, have the injector pulse, and have the next ball feed in. How to keep blow back/by to a minimum I'm not sure just yet, unless you simply used a side chamber of sorts to allow the air to blow by the ball but still down the barrel. Maybe like a grove around the breach area that acts as a gas blow by but still puts the air down the barrel. That would help with efficiency a tad, though the blow by itself wouldn't be great.

It should certainly help with popcorning, but then again with the advent of force feed hoppers or the incorporation again of powerfeed that's a moot point.

I would like to see someone take the injector, mount it to the bact of the power tube and see what happens.

DM

[skanksanddank]

I am sure this has been said before but I didnt see it. An integrated chrono is quite easy, add another eye and some nice software to go with it. Adding this feature could branch to an autotune mode, just fire iff a hopper for an quick learn of your style, the gun adjusts for your shooting style. A pintle valve as everyone suggested would do nicely for air delivery, and I have seen some very efficient regs, so it can't be far off to have one as close to perfect as possible.

[nerobro]

Hey Nero... just found this online... may be another avenue of contact to get a free sample to try out. *snip*

The rest of the info can be found here ~> http://green.autoblog.com/2008/05/05...-diesels-even/

Continental is Siemens US fuel systems group. they never called me back. Speaking of which, I should give them another try.

First question is how will the bolt action work? If the air shoots out of the Injector, which I believe is substitute for the valve then would we even need a bolt? Could the ball just load into the chamber and be shot?

How much voltage does the injector require?

Though we aren't there yet... This valve could just be put behind the powertube and bolt assembly on an automag, and it would function. There are other ways of actuating the bolt too.

Voltage is easy, they use ~150v. It's been mentioned before. That's an achievable voltage, a smps, some caps, and a fet that can handle blocking 300v or so, and we're set. the real problem is we don't know how much current it takes. that's potentially a deal breaker.

I am sure this has been said before but I didnt see it. An integrated chrono is quite easy, add another eye and some nice software to go with it. Adding this feature could branch to an autotune mode, just fire iff a hopper for an quick learn of your style, the gun adjusts for your shooting style.

There's a lot of ways to do it. The reliable methods all require wires that go to the front of the gun. That's a dealbreaker.

Now what do you mean by the gun "adjusting to your shooting style" Pull trigger, ball shoots....

[RavishingEddie]

Originally posted by Devilman
To me the ideal way though would be to have the balls feed straight into the breach, have the injector pulse, and have the next ball feed in. How to keep blow back/by to a minimum I'm not sure just yet, unless you simply used a side chamber of sorts to allow the air to blow by the ball but still down the barrel. Maybe like a grove around the breach area that acts as a gas blow by but still puts the air down the barrel. That would help with efficiency a tad, though the blow by itself wouldn't be great.

I was thinking about what you said and remembered the AK-47 mechanism. Maybe we could use a gate of some sort to prevent blowback to the ball stack and use your air chamber idea to recycle the excess air to open the gate and let the next ball in. Here is my reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQe86...1&feature=fvwp

This ofcourse would require a closed bolt design, a very light gate or bolt and spring, but since we aren't dealing with sears, why would we need to use the decade old bolts or limit ourselves to the automag platform?

Just and idea.

[DevilMan]

I was thinking about what you said and remembered the AK-47 mechanism. Maybe we could use a gate of some sort to prevent blowback to the ball stack and use your air chamber idea to recycle the excess air to open the gate and let the next ball in. Here is my reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQe86...1&feature=fvwp

This ofcourse would require a closed bolt design, a very light gate or bolt and spring, but since we aren't dealing with sears, why would we need to use the decade old bolts or limit ourselves to the automag platform?

Just and idea.

Having a physical gate though will slow the cycle times and increase the complexity as well as allow for more "chopping" All in all, a well placed burst of air from the injector with the right placement should not only eliminate ALL blow back, but actually induce SUCTION into the chamber, sucking the next ball into the chamber almost instantly behind the one that was just fired. That would only require a small manifold of sorts on the end of the injector to diffuse the air the proper way.

DM

[DevilMan]

OH and while we are wishing and dreaming..... CAN WE PLEASE USE TWISTLOCK BARRELS AGAIN!!!!!!!

I soooooooo much prefer the TL's over the other options the market has.

DM

[RavishingEddie]

Having a physical gate though will slow the cycle times and increase the complexity as well as allow for more "chopping" All in all, a well placed burst of air from the injector with the right placement should not only eliminate ALL blow back, but actually induce SUCTION into the chamber, sucking the next ball into the chamber almost instantly behind the one that was just fired. That would only require a small manifold of sorts on the end of the injector to diffuse the air the proper way.

DM

Yeah you are right more complexity is not our friend

A boltless design is a good concept and if it would at all work, it would make for a strong selling point and eliminate weight. You are right about the suction, I forgot about that.

[nerobro]

If you're using a force feed hopper, you can't go boltless. YOu do need a retention system to manage boltless cycling. Why depend on a loose stack of balls to seal your breach when a bolt will seal it for you? That said, we could shorten the bolt travel a lot as we don't need to account for acceleration time of a hammer, or making sure things move far enough to make and break good seals like on the mag.

You could use a gate of some sort in the feed neck, that would only need to move a fraction of the width of a paintball. But you'd still be depending on the balls in the neck to do your sealing, I don't like that.

[RavishingEddie]

Hey Nero,

I work for a manufacturer that sends Demo units out to potential inquiries and our devices are worth anywhere between 10K to 30K a piece. Could you contact Bosch and see if they
will let you borrow a demo unit of the fuel injector? I could ask them as well if you give me their number.

What type of testing tools were you planning on using wiith the spark plug?
Right now i'm living across the country in a small apartment and don't have much, but a soldering iron and a laptop and a electronics store close by. I will try to help as much as I can

[halB]

If you're using a force feed hopper, you can't go boltless. YOu do need a retention system to manage boltless cycling. Why depend on a loose stack of balls to seal your breach when a bolt will seal it for you? That said, we could shorten the bolt travel a lot as we don't need to account for acceleration time of a hammer, or making sure things move far enough to make and break good seals like on the mag.

You could use a gate of some sort in the feed neck, that would only need to move a fraction of the width of a paintball. But you'd still be depending on the balls in the neck to do your sealing, I don't like that.

Ya, I invented a method that cut the distance of bolt travel by a significant fraction.

If I get a good summer internship next year I'll have the money to patent it.

[vf-xx]

I forget if this was linked to before in the thread, but thought it was interesting:

Cyber 9000

[nerobro]

I remember when the cyber 9000 was a pipe dream, and when it was new, and when it failed. .... i've been doing this to long. :-)

and just to be clear. the cyber 9000 is a PVI shocker, with new electronics. so as a gun, it still sucks.

[vf-xx]

Yeah, but I do find it interesting that they were trying an on barrel chrono

[nerobro]

well, in discussions with another friend of mine. He suggested a laser rangefinder. I dismissed my inital idea of using one mounted in the bolt. (a idea he suggested later in the conversation as well) due to misting and fog when the gun fires.

Okey, so we can't do it in the gun. How about.. beside the gun. Say a camera mounted over and under the barrel. Stereoscopic cameras can determine range. Sadly that sort of processing power takes a lot of battery. ... but you'd also have in game video! :-)

So... my next thought was to put a simple laser rangefinder under the barrel. Aim it some 20-25" out, and it might catch 60-80% of the balls shot over it and get velocity that way.

Hey? Look.. I was talking ongun chronos. :-) I feel dirty now.

Hmm.. Perhaps it would be a good sellign point to sell each gun with a little clamp on the muzzle type chrono. Tom would know best what a little plastic shell would cost to have produces. Put it on to chrono the gun, take it off to play.

[athomas]

Hmm.. Perhaps it would be a good sellign point to sell each gun with a little clamp on the muzzle type chrono. ... Put it on to chrono the gun, take it off to play.

Isn't that what we have now with the little hand held chronos. Hold it under the barrel to chrono, take it away to play. Just make one that doesn't have to be manually reset and you have the same idea.

[vf-xx]

Wouldn't the easiest way to do an on gun chrony be a pair of breakbeam eyes with a set seperation?

They're readily available in the paintball world and the calculation should be simple / easy enough.

[RavishingEddie]

How come there is so much talk about chrono on a gun. I haven't ever heard of such a demand in the paintball field. You chrono once and then forget about it. Also many fields require that you get chrono'd by a field rep so he can tag your gun. So even if you had such a device why would you need it since you are forced to use the fields chrono anyway?

[usagi_tetsu]

How come there is so much talk about chrono on a gun. I haven't ever heard of such a demand in the paintball field. You chrono once and then forget about it. Also many fields require that you get chrono'd by a field rep so he can tag your gun. So even if you had such a device why would you need it since you are forced to use the fields chrono anyway?

Where it started in this particular discussion was that it was believed that the gun would need to know, constantly, what velocity it is producing so that it could adjust its flow rate, on the fly. This would keep the marker more consistant, shot to shot, and also, coupled with info being streamed from the tank on how much volume remains and what pressure the reg is giving, let the marker dip deeper into the tank by adjusting dump chamber volume, dwell, and whatnot.

Now, outside of this discussion, I could see having on-gun chronies being useful to the major tournament leagues. Couple each marker's chrony with a wireless transmitter, and the referees can get a constant stream of info. Yes, spikes do happen, but if someone is shooting consistantly hot, the closest on-field ref can be alerted and pull the player.

Would an on-marker chrony be useful to us rec-ballers? Not particularly, aside from my first point about the gun design needing it.

[DevilMan]

How come there is so much talk about chrono on a gun. I haven't ever heard of such a demand in the paintball field. You chrono once and then forget about it. Also many fields require that you get chrono'd by a field rep so he can tag your gun. So even if you had such a device why would you need it since you are forced to use the fields chrono anyway?

As Usagi states. It started as a way for the markers components to know how much air at what pressure and for how long. It wasn't a matter of being field legal, but a gauge as to how much work for the marker to do.

The issue I have with that is, an on board chrono would measure the speed of the ball JUST shot. And we all know how much flux there is in balls out there. So if you shot a small bore ball that sealed the barrel poorly and it went to 275FPS when the limit is 285 the gun would compensate and maybe keep the dwell up a notch to speed the next shot up. The next one could be a nice fat sealing type ball that the extra time would cause you to shoot 305. The next shot would be pulled WAYYYYYY down because you'd be shooting hot. I think you can grasp the idea...

That's the only thing I see wrong with the idea.

DM

[Lohman446]

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/d...-do-exist.html

This might be somewhat pertinent, at least some of the thoughts to the discussion

[Rooster]

It seems as if the high tech answer may be no answer at all. What is all goes back to is that you are using a very imperfect power source. Find a way to lose the gas, and a paintball gun becomes as accurate as any other gun. (That was shooting a round projectile without the benifit of rifling)

[vf-xx]

Everybody looks at me like I'm crazy when I tell them I'd like to make a coil gun style paintball gun....

[Ratt]

Everybody looks at me like I'm crazy when I tell them I'd like to make a coil gun style paintball gun....

What do you mean by a 'coil' style gun?

[vf-xx]

Coil Gun

Basically that design, but since the paint is obviously non metallic, you'd have to put a carriage that has some sort of return or safety stop so it doesn't fly out too.

[CatoRockwell]

I'll take mine in a railed body like the Tac-One. I'm thinking a Tan & darkbrown swirl.

How much is this going to run me?
I'll start saving now

[sig11]

I'll take mine in a railed body like the Tac-One. I'm thinking a Tan & darkbrown swirl.

How much is this going to run me?
I'll start saving now

Send Nerobro a piezoelectric fuel injector and you never know...

[PaintballEngineer]

Any developments?