Where did AGD go wrong?

[Nobody]

That is a loaded statement, but so where, no what caused AGD to loose marketshare or the masses. As we all know, a well tuned L10 will not chop paint unless the paint is horrible. In the speed game, the RT and subsequent ReTro/Emag/Xvalave all can achieve that same level of performance. So that is not a problem in comparison to other comparable guns of the era.

If you look at the history from the start of AGD to about 2000, basically after wide acceptance of electros on the top levels of professional play and then filtering down to the everyday players, AGD really began to loose people, loose marketshare and loose out on nearly everything. Yet by 2000, you had AGD mags not chopping paint, an electro versions and maybe other innovations that we all know. Yet, there was a decline in use and visibility. Yes, a lot of that has to do with the fickle nature of paintballers and the disposable cash era, which some companies were issuing guns/models every 2-3 years.

So i really want to know what the community thinks. I have my own ideas, but i do need more sources than myself. This is also not an admonishing of AGD, more so trying figure out the point where it happened. So please, indulge me in this. I do want to see what everyone thinks.

[Fred]

AGD never loosed anyone. Lost maybe.

Personally, I think it's because there was ZERO marketing hype. There was a stigma when I started playing that somehow AutoCockers shot farther than AutoMags... That was 1999.

Aside from the stray body change, Classic to Minimag, the evolution to the Classic RT body, and then finally to aluminum and the slugs in the mid aughts, the design never got sexy. Just a tube, that worked.

Still haven't seen anyone do a re-skinned valve that isn't a tube.

[alpha_q_up23]

Don't forget being banned in tournament play due to not being able to cap the rt, plus I don't think companies who make new electronic markers every year would like to see a team of 20 year old mags out shoot their newest marker

[Warwitch]

When you make stuff to last and dont care about candy coating your image this is what you get. A loyal following of die-hard fans. AGD didnt 'go wrong'.

[BigEvil]

[going_home]

The point where it went from incline to decline was with the c&d from smart parts.

The moustache behind the innovation lost interest when the deck became stacked.

That's not to say innovation couldn't start back up again.

What Tim is doing is a great start.

[JKR]

AGD didn't sell out, basically. In an era of rushing to the lowest common denominator with cheap electros made in China, AGD continued on its path of making quality, American made markers. The single greatest thing that killed AGD's electro and high end development was Smart Parts. The resulting lack of high-end markers from AGD undoubtedly took some wind out of the sails of the entire company so they fell back, regrouped and marketed to a niche that other manufacturers tended to run from.

Although the industry is in regression as far as sales go, I believe there is a strong and growing interest in quality paintguns. This obviously works to AGD's favor. Combined with a more aggressive marketing and sales campaign, I see AGD remaining viable and strong for a small, niche manufacturer for a long time to come.

[AGDRetro]

I think the idea of weight being an issue is almost funny after 2003 when the ULE debuted. The problem there is that without a lot of marketing to advertise the new lightweight Mags, I think to many they retained their reputation as a "heavy" gun. A decent ULE X-Valve'd Mag is still pretty light by today's standards. Just a shame that they cannot be 100% controlled for capped tournament use. Still... probably one of the finest recball markers😁

[skipdogg]

Many small issues caused it. Most of which are mentioned above. Overall I'd just say,
Everything has a life cycle. AGD went thru that just like every other company does or will. If anything, I would say we are all lucky AGD didn't and hasn't closed shop. Most companies in their shoes would have done so years ago.

[ghost flanker]

Early on (1990-1996ish), the biggest problems were;
- BALL CHOPS: this horrible reputation followed AGD around like a black cloud for years, even after the problem was finally resolved in 2002, over a decade later. Just imagine if the level 10 bolt had been introduced in the mid 90s before AGD's popularity began to decline.
- MALFUNCTIONS FROM CO2: was either partially solved by expansion chambers and anti-siphon tanks, or completely resolved by compressed air, which was an expensive and sparsely available solution at the time for an already expensive gun, especially with non-tournament players.

1997 onwards, the biggest problems (aside from ball chop) were;
- WEIGHT: even the weight savings from ULE (when it finally became available) couldn't counterbalance the heavy Emag/Xmag batteries enough for these guns to be widely accepted by players over competing brands for tournament use. AGD also dropped the ball by neglecting to ULE other parts of their guns besides just the body and valve. Case in point, the massive solid aluminum brick we refer to as the RT Pro rail was completely unnecessary.
- SHART FARTS: aka greedy backstabbers and ruiners of the industry...I'm not bitter at all
- POOR AIR EFFICIENCY: this was never improved upon by AGD in any new, updated models.
- TOO MUCH EXTERNAL AIR LINE: never improved upon by AGD in any new, updated models, either.
- POWERFEED: AGD was late to the party in developing low-profile vertical feed bodies.
- SIMPLISTIC STYLING: the slick looking Xmag arrived too late before SP killed it.

[keiko_819]

They went wrong making a marker that's quality is unsurpassed, yea their are space guns that will shoot faster and be more efficient...I personally don't care, Ive shot most high end electros/pumps and still feel my mags have a tighter grouping. Ive been lucky enough to make it to some old schoolers games and most the times, the veteran ballers think I'm shooting a ccm or bob long, when i explain and show them its a mag they are cought off guard. Even made it to a couple AO games and it seemed like there were only a select group that shot our mags all day. In fact i was kind of disappointed when i started seeing the battery powered machines come out...yeah they could use some more marketing but I feel its up to us to keep using those old classic dinasours and new ule builds...make those snapshots cound and land those impossible shots to make the opponent wonder what he/she got taken out with...that will spread the virus that we have as mag shooters. show them that quality still shoots strait...

[capt spank]

I don't think agd necessarily "went wrong". It's a top of the line mechanical marker. But let's compare it to let's say an axe. The axe is smoother, quieter, lighter, more efficient, just as easy maintenance, just as good reliability. Some paint I can't shoot in my mags. Never had an issue with my axe with even the crappiest paint.

Imo, aesthetics is a significant downside. The bodies/rails that the awesome people in this community produce are sexy as hell. The ule tube, meh.

[boddah]

What was the deal with smart parts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dark Side]

Not enough marketing. Now with that being said, Paintball Charleston is the last place I knew of that actually sold and promoted Mags but it has been two years since I was in the area.

[Dayspring]

What was the deal with smart parts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Through some wheeling and dealing, SP came into possession of a patent that covered the electronic firing of a paintball gun. They also used some shady dealings to expand the definition beyond the actual drawings to cover ALL electronic modes of firing the gun. At that point, they started enforcing the patent - cease and desist or pay a license fee per gun. Some places stopped making electronic guns, some paid the fees. Others (National Paintball/Empire & Dye) from what I hear didn't have to pay at all - partially due to National's "300 lb gorilla" distribution status (no reason to piss that off) and Dye having prior art on the spool valve that Smart Parts was using for their shocker (Dye could have sued them for infringement).

The last 2 items are, admittedly, hearsay - but they came from reliable sources.

[boddah]

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to piece together all the history since I've been out of the game. So who owns SP?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dayspring]

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to piece together all the history since I've been out of the game. So who owns SP?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, SP doesn't exist as it used to. Kee Action Sports (Empire, etc.) bought the patents when Smart Parts went bankrupt. Interestingly enough, the patent is now public domain.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...033&highlight=

[vintage]

[going_home]

[cockerpunk]

i think it was a poor decision to try and make a stand alone E-trigger for an automag, and preserve the backwards compatibility. the direct acting noid, and thus massive battery needed to power it ... it might have been fine for a late 1990's electro, but by even the year 2000, it was outdated. a wiser course of action would have been to totally revamp the automag valve, ditch backwards compatibility and make a true electro-pnumatic triggered blowforward gun, with eyes. such a gun was probably in the works, but the above "we have capital to do one thing, defend ourselves from SP, or make a new gun" dichotomy got in the way.

[rawbutter]

I don't think mags are overbuilt. Tipmmans are just as bullet-proof (well, almost), but they're still selling well, even the new ones that cost a few hundred dollars.

Nor do I think that mags are especially outdated. There are still plenty of other "old" designs out there that do fine.

I don't even think that mags have to go electronic. Mech markers are having a huge revival right now.

...by 2000, you had AGD mags not chopping paint, an electro versions and maybe other innovations that we all know. Yet, there was a decline in use and visibility. Yes, a lot of that has to do with the fickle nature of paintballers and the disposable cash era, which some companies were issuing guns/models every 2-3 years.

I think this is actually the biggest problem. No new products. At least not on a regular basis. Although...my definition of "new" might be different than yours. Let me explain.

If you look at a profitable paintball company like PE or Tippmann, they are constantly releasing new markers every year or so. Now, these "new" markers might not be all that different than the old ones. But it's still something to advertise. Something for the players to talk about. Something to get up the hype. At the very least, a "new" product reminds the players that the company is still active and working and there for them. It attracts attention and gets people talking and thinking about buying one.

Or take the "new" autocockers that are out there. The Resurrection. The ID custom markers. Again, these aren't a "new" design, but they are still something fresh to talk about and drool over.

AGD, on the other hand, hasn't really released anything new in...what, two decades now? I mean, there's now the XM Automag, and there were those custom anodized markers that got sold a year ago. But there were only a handful of those available. And the basic ULE mag has pretty much been the same forever. The only new stuff is coming from aftermarket guys like Luke, Cougar, X-magterror, etc. Maybe that's enough to keep the die-hard fans happy, but to the average player, all this "new" stuff is hard to find. You have to come here or join a Facebook group. You often have to get your new parts anodized by yourself. You have to jump through all these extra hoops.

And even when a player does find out about Automags and decide to buy one, there's no reason to buy one new. If I'm interested in a PE marker and I'm debating about buying used or new, in that case the new one has a few extra features. Or it's 20 grams lighter. Or it's 10% more efficient on air. Minor changes, I know, but if I want the latest and greatest, it's a clear choice. When buying an Automag, however, the ULE mag on the AGD website is literally the EXACT SAME THING as something I can find on eBay for $200 less.

So, I think the solution is simple. New products. (Again, I'm not saying 100% new. Just different and a little bit better.)

Sell a run of XM mags with all dust black anodizing in 2021.

Make a run with reverse x-valves in 2022.

Start taking some of the most popular aftermarket pieces and commission runs with those parts. Build a run of guns around the MP90 vertical frame for 2023, and maybe offer a T-Rex upgrade so people don't have to buy one from Luke and install it themselves. Build a run in 2024 around the XMT body and EVO foregrip.

As I've said, the change doesn't have to be much. It doesn't even have to be "better." But AGD needs to release something new every year that makes it worth buying something from them instead of eBay. Then people will start talking. Start buying.

[rawbutter]

This is kind of a side-bar to my previous post, but I've actually had an idea for years that seems relevant now.

The Automag C.

The dream is to build a run of custom Automags. No raw parts, and no "parts" even. A complete mag ready to go. The specifics change every once in a while, but here's the basic idea.

• reverse x-valve
• shortened ULE body (like the old Pariah bodies)
• Teth rail, RT length
• MP90 frame
• EVO foregrip
• ultralite barrel
• Nummech ASA
• everything is dust black

Obviously, funding all of this is a big problem. And building just one of these mags would be super expensive. But price-per-unit goes down as you buy more units, right? So build 100. I've got retirement money sitting somewhere earning 5% or so. I can't handle all 100 markers, but I would happily take some money out of the 401K if I could buy 10 of these things, keep one or two, and sell the rest for 25% more than I bought them for. And I'm willing to bet there are a few more investors out there like me.

I know this would be a lot of work for Tim and the others still at AGD, but if they are willing, I bet they could find enough investors to make it work. There's still a lot of faith in the company, and a lot of potential. It just needs a make-over.

[going_home]

I think Tim is doing good job.

Keep up the good work sir !

[Magoman]

What going home said. Thank you Tim for keeping our mags rocking! As to where AGD or Tom Kaye went wrong? Please..... In case y'all haven't noticed, there's a 20 year old forum dedicated to his legacy. Not to mention an even bigger Facebook following.

[Nobody]

What going home said. Thank you Tim for keeping our mags rocking! As to where AGD or Tom Kaye went wrong? Please..... In case y'all haven't noticed, there's a 20 year old forum dedicated to his legacy. Not to mention an even bigger Facebook following.

Ummm, no one is saying Tim isn't doing a fine job. This post was started nearly 4 years ago. It was about the marketplace or being held in the paintball world.